Episode 95: The Word Became Flesh: Is Jesus Forever Incarnate?

Jacob Paul: Welcome to the Truth in Love podcast with your hosts Kimberly Faith and John Mac. The Truth in Love podcast seeks to present God’s timeless truth through the lens of his remarkable love.

Kimberly Faith: Well, dad, this podcast kind of blew me away when I started studying this topic about whether Jesus is forever incarnate.

John McLarty: This is going to be a great podcast. It’s very thought provoking. And it’s a lot of scripture, just straight from scripture.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. And it kind of started with a conversation I had on a flight from Denver to Springfield with a Dr. Wade Mumm. And it’s funny how we’ve talked about this before, but you don’t have to even have somebody speak to know that they’re a child of God. And I could tell he had the peace. We were sitting next to each other and I was like, this guy is

John McLarty: To use some sixties language, you picked up the vibe.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Well, it’s definitely a connection to the Holy Spirit. But anyway, we got to talking about the Lord, and he’s a pastor

John McLarty: Interesting. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. He also teaches at a college in Springfield. And anyway, he just kind of posed this. He says, have you ever thought about this idea that when Jesus chose to become incarnate, that it may have been forever? And I just said, that kind of blew my mind. I was like, no. Because I could think about, you know, all the implications of this for us personally in wrapping our minds around this idea about what Jesus gave up. What did he really give up when he became incarnate, right? And so before we dive into, because we’re not presenting this as a fact, we’re presenting this as here’s what the Bible says, and you make the decision.

John McLarty: And there are a lot of verses related to that.

Kimberly Faith: There are a lot of verses.

John McLarty: I love that part of this is it’s just a lot of bible, biblical based information, very thought provoking.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And so before we get into that, let’s just kind of talk about why does this matter? Why does this podcast, the topic of it, is it worth your next forty five minutes of listening? And I’ll tell you, when I started studying it, the reason it became such a, it’s become such a, I don’t know, integral part of my thinking, changed my way of thinking, is because it helps me get inside the heart of Christ to a larger degree to create thankfulness and the desire to glorify him more because it’s just so profound.

John McLarty: Sure. Someone gives up something for us, an example would be a father, a mother who gives up

Kimberly Faith: Makes some great sacrifice.

John McLarty: Right. Say a tremendous career or say a pastor who could have been a great scientist or engineer and gives that up to become just a servant of God, serving others. We all love and that enhances our appreciation of that person. So to ponder what Jesus gave up is going to increase ours and the listeners’ appreciation for what Jesus gave up for us.

Kimberly Faith: Absolutely. I mean, it’s and this is just an example I think everybody can relate to is the story of saving private Ryan, you know?

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: He’s standing at the graves of the people, the whole unit that died trying to save him because the government decided that he was the last of his mother’s four sons

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: And they needed to save him because the mother did not deserve to sacrifice, wasn’t it four sons?

John McLarty: I think it was.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And when the last member was dying, I think it was a captain, he said something to the effect of make your life matter because of what we gave up. And I’m paraphrasing. Those aren’t the exact quotes, but you get the idea.

John McLarty: Well, then I remember that scene when they have come back down to the beach and he asks his wife, he said, tell me my life mattered or did my life matter? And he had just relived this whole, yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And this is why, he was embracing the sacrifice. And that’s what I really, for me, this really hit home, this study about how much Jesus gave up considering that. Did he become permanently altered as God when he became incarnate? Did he give up more than we have even recognized? And I think the Bible makes a very strong case that he actually did and still is.

But again, I’m not, I don’t think we’re saying that we have the whole answer, but we sure do have a lot of evidence of what the answer is.

John McLarty: And for sure, well, up to and we’ll explore this, but up to certain points in time for sure, there’s

Kimberly Faith: The evidence is inequivocal.

John McLarty: Yeah. There’s no doubt.

Kimberly Faith: So in other words, this isn’t just a theological exploration. It’s not just a curiosity. This study has the power to permanently deepen our worship, our wonder, our thankfulness, and to really pivot our life to make it count, to make it worth the sacrifice that was given for us.

John McLarty: And really we’ve talked about this before how, what a powerful motivator thankfulness is.

Kimberly Faith:  Yes. 

John McLarty: As we are thankful and appreciate what God has done for us, we just want to love him more.

Kimberly Faith: Right. Right. Yeah. It’s amazing to me how we can, when we enter into a, like Saving Private Ryan. I mean, this guy was very cognizant that people, multiple people had sacrificed so he could have the long life he had. And so anyway,  let’s set the road map real quick. We’re going to go through this podcast. It’s going to be like four sections. Okay? The first one is what does the Bible say about the pre-incarnate son.The second one is what did he lay down? In other words, you know, let’s just look at what the scriptures say about that. And then number three is going to be 13 exhibits. You know, I’m an attorney, so I like to have exhibit one of

John McLarty: Evidence.

Kimberly Faith: What is the evidence? In other words, the cumulative biblical evidence that this is a permanent union, that he became incarnate forever. And again, we don’t know if it’s forever, but we just know what the Bible says. And then finally, the fourth segment will be what does this mean for you and me?

John McLarty: Right. Why does it matter?

Kimberly Faith: Right. So, dad, let’s just start with segment one. What is in the beginning, who was the son before he became incarnate? And since you teach a lot of the concepts, why don’t you take the lead on this?

John McLarty: Well, you know, you’ve got God existed. God is spirit and those that worship him must, excuse me, I had to clear my throat. God is spirit, this is John 4:24, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

John McLarty: So, but as far as we know, there’s been God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. And so it’s kind of this mystery as to what existed before that.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: And I don’t think we quite, there’s a whole study that can be done on the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. And kind of the predeterminate counsel of how they were going to create man and redeem man.

Kimberly Faith: Right, which we’re going to talk about that.

John McLarty: And they had to have these different roles.

Kimberly Faith: Right. Right.

John McLarty: So there’s always been this distinction of God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, but this kind of eternal unbounded trinity that are all one. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: But Jesus uniquely as the Son wasn’t just a mysterious role, he became the incarnate. He became

Kimberly Faith: Flesh. 

John McLarty:Took on the body of flesh.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.Yes. 

John McLarty: So the Holy Spirit never did that. 

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

John McLarty: And the God the Father obviously never did that.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: So we’re focusing on that, not only the sonship, you might say as a status, but the actual incarnate.

Kimberly Faith: Well, and the Bible does tell us, and we talk about this when we talk about who God is and the law of sin and death, in the basic bible foundations, study. But we know that all the characteristics of God, you know, we’ve got his nature and we’ve got his attributes. His attributes of being omnipotent, omniscient, everlasting you know, he’s infinite. He’s a spirit, right? You read John 4:24. And specifically the holy spirit, you know, First Corinthians 6:19 says, he’s the one whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. He dwells inside human bodies but has no body of his own. So you pointed out the Holy Spirit is, you know, he’s always been, he’s always been a spirit.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: But when we talk about, you know, kind of shifting gears, when we talk about the pre-incarnate son of God, I absolutely love how John Chapter One and Genesis Chapter One tie together this kind of pre-incarnate form of Jesus.

John McLarty: Yeah, a lot of people that read the Bible don’t quite grasp this, but that, the idea of Jesus, the Word being the creator, having the specific role of the creator. So John 1:1-3, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God and all things were made through him.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: That is Jesus.

Kimberly Faith: That’s Jesus.

John McLarty: Because later on in John, it tells us, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: So it clears up, this is Jesus.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: The word is Jesus. And he created, all things were made by him, through him.

Kimberly Faith: The study of the trinity, and this is not really the point of this particular podcast, but the study of trinity and the more I try to grasp it, and I go, when I teach the concepts and the basics to people, I always tie back John One with Genesis One because it makes so much sense. You know, in Genesis, we have, you know, God before when the whole world was void without form, we have God speaking the word. The spirit hovering. That word of God created everything. It wasn’t God taking something in his hands and molding it and casting it into the, you know, into the abyss. It was he spoke. That word is Jesus. We have the written word, which is the scripture, and there are so many implications to that. But before Jesus became incarnate, he was, you know, he had all the characteristics of God the Father from the standpoint of when we look at the nature and the attributes of God, he was exactly the same as the spirit and they were the same, right?

John McLarty: And interestingly enough, that’s absolutely true. They were doing different things.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: Jesus specifically created the world. 

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: Says all things were made through him. And that’s just very interesting because the word is an expression

Kimberly Faith: Of the heart.

John McLarty: You and I are talking, we’re expressing. So the creation, the word, and then spoke, and we have this expression of God, the physical creation.

Kimberly Faith: I love that you say that because it always blows my mind how the holy spirit works, not just in what we are we do on this podcast, but even just in our relationship. Because one of the podcasts coming up that I am considering and praying about doing is that exact thought. Jesus, the word, the expression of the father’s heart. That’s, what you think about that. How do I know what, how do my children know what the expression of my heart is towards them? It’s in what I speak. How do they know what I think about them? It’s in how I speak. It’s also in what I do, right? Well, Jesus was the word and he did, you know?

John McLarty: Think about this, and I don’t want to totally chase this rabbit, but one of the ways your children knew you loved them is you put food on their table.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: And Jesus, the word, spoke the creation into existence. And then, I mean, here we are. Look at it.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: It’s this beautiful expression of the love of God to us, just the physical creation.

Kimberly Faith: And then he says,I  am the bread of life and the living water, right?

John McLarty: Exactly.

Kimberly Faith: And, you know, it’s just, there are so many, there’s a myriad of implications we could talk about, but

John McLarty: But I think just to, kind of as we move on, that even the pre incarnate son was in a distinct role back in eternity past. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was a distinct role, and they’ve always had distinct roles. And the distinct role of Jesus was always pointing towards his incarnation, you know?

John McLarty:  It was. Yes. He was the son

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. That’s right. I mean, even like

John McLarty: And was going to do the will of the father. Very interesting.

Kimberly Faith: You look like, you know, look at the, you know, the sacrifice Abraham made of Isaac, you know, a picture of Christ, right? All the sacrifices made throughout the Old Testament history. So, I think before we kind of get into what he laid down, okay, which is kind of the second part of this podcast. I really, when I was researching this, I found this quote by Charles Spurgeon. And again, this kind of goes back to the just building that thankful spirit and that thankful, that heart of thankfulness towards Jesus. And he says, quote, and this was his imagination of what was going on right before Jesus became incarnate. He says, quote, how do angels crowd around to see the son of God take off his robes? He laid aside his crown. He strips himself of his bright vest of glory to dress himself in the simple garment of clay, end quote.

John McLarty: Amen. He gave up that bright vest of glory to dress himself in a body of flesh. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. 

John McLarty: That’s what it’s talking about.

Kimberly Faith: And I really think the full impact of what Jesus gave up is far greater than not only that in anything we’ve stopped to consider, but anything we can really imagine.

John McLarty: Exactly.

Kimberly Faith: You know? And so let’s kind of, you brought this up before how this plan was made before the world was even created. And so let’s kind of move on to what exactly did Jesus lay down?

John McLarty: And this is an amazing verse. To go along with that idea, really the basis of that idea is Revelations 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him whose name have not been written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So that idea of, what did he do? He was the lamb. He came to sacrifice himself, slain but from the foundation of the world. So this wasn’t like God made man and then oops, man sinned and needed a redeemer. God knew this from the very beginning and this idea of a lamb, Jesus, the Son of God, the Son of man, the incarnate Jesus. In the mind of God was slain from the foundation of the world.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. I think when you really stop to consider, that raises a lot of questions. And I think one of the most obvious questions I, well, the most common questions, you know, I hear from other people and from even what I’ve thought about is, why? Why did he have to do that? You know, why did God who had this perfection have to make this plan before the foundation of the world? I don’t pretend to know the answer to that. I know one obvious answer because of his nature is, one of the three pillars of his nature is love. We know that love is a voluntary thing by definition. The only way to, again, this is in my limited human analysis, the only way to experience love is to give people a choice to reject your love. And if God says I’m going to create these humans who are going to have this choice, then we need to make a plan to rescue them from their horrible choices to reject us.

John McLarty: Yeah. And that’s the truth. It goes back to free will. If I took someone and enslaved them and made them obey me, then there’s no love in that. I don’t love them and they don’t love me. I’ve taken away their free will. And unfortunately, we see that all over the world throughout all of the ages. So God in his love created man, but gave him a free will knowing he would fall and thus knowing he would need a redeemer. The fall of man didn’t take God by surprise. Like, oops, they’ve sinned.

Kimberly Faith: Right. And this also, and this is another little rabbit, but it’s kind of worth chasing at this point. For people who have taken the words election and predestination and made those into some, basically said that God is sovereign so he can do whatever he wants, that argument ignores the essence of love.

John McLarty: It does.

Kimberly Faith: It violates, His sovereignty cannot violate his basic nature or he would no longer be God. And so, by no definition of love could any of us conceive that we would give birth to a child just for the purpose of destroying them.

John McLarty: Right. I mean, just think of, for God so loved the world, John 3:16, and whomsoever will may come.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: But will, whomsoever will, all may come. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: But through an exercise of our will, our free will, we have to choose God.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes. And this, again, isn’t, I mean, there’s so many rabbits we could chase here, but this isn’t a podcast about that particular doctrine. And we probably will do one in the future just because it’s an emerging area in Christianity where people are becoming more and more convinced that’s true.

John McLarty: I think the idea here is that this idea of incarnation, there needing to be an incarnation of God, it wasn’t just a reactive God like, oops, I didn’t expect that to happen.

Kimberly Faith: Yes, That’s right.

John McLarty: It was the predetermined counsel.

Kimberly Faith: So let’s, you kind of touched on this before, let’s kind of just look at the incarnation itself, which is John 1:14. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the father full of grace

John McLarty: That’s true.

Kimberly Faith:  And truth.  This word, became, is a Greek word, and I’m going to attempt to pronounce it,  egeneto, which means it is decisive and final. In other words, he didn’t appear as flesh. He didn’t simulate it, he became it. With all the implications of becoming flesh, hunger, weariness, tears, blood, sweat, you know, God, Jesus, the spirit, which had existed from eternity purely as a spirit, now had a heartbeat. He now had fingernails. He now had a mother. And speaking of that, you know something interesting about this is another little rabbit, but it’s really interesting. It’s something I just added to the upcoming book we’re doing on the foundational truths. But think about the actual birth of Jesus. So he had the chromosomes of Mary, you know, 24, right? And he had the chromosomes of God. He never had the chromosomes of Joseph.

John McLarty: Right. Yeah. That’s very interesting when he became flesh. So God became flesh.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: It’s not just this non-God human that was, it was, God himself became flesh.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah. We don’t know what the chromosomes of the Holy Spirit look like, but he had them. 

John McLarty: Exactly. 

Kimberly Faith: And it just makes the mystery even more remarkable. But the point is, his incarnation wasn’t some controlled divine experiment. It was unreserved entry into the human condition, you know, really. And I like what the apostle Paul said. Let’s read, Philippians 2:6-8. You see that? Let’s see here.

John McLarty: Yeah. This is just a perfect wording of what we’ve been talking about. So this is Paul talking about Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant and coming in the likeness of men and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. That is remarkable. I think there’s two words here, two Greek words that merit some examination. And he uses the word form, which is a Greek word. And it is in other words, it means he exchanged who he was for being a servant. In other words, he didn’t pretend to be a human. He entered into the full reality of humans’ existence even while, all the while knowing the end of the road, what he was going to suffer.

John McLarty: Very remarkable. Yeah. The term morphed.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: We use the,you know, it’s a complete change.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Like metamorphosis.

John McLarty: Yeah. Metamorphosis.

Kimberly Faith: I mean, you think about the caterpillar turning into a butterfly. 

John McLarty: Exactly. 

Kimberly Faith: You know, it’s no longer a caterpillar. And that’s a really strong term. And then the other word that when Paul says made himself of no reputation is another Greek word, kenosis, which is a self emptying. You know, and it’s hard for us to understand what that means because we know he didn’t empty himself completely of his divinity. I mean He  had the like I said before, he had the chromosomes of the Holy Spirit, right?

John McLarty: He remained fully God.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. You can’t get rid of your DNA, right? So he remained fully God, which made him qualified to be our substitute. We talk about in the concept study how we had to have a qualified substitute. None of us are qualified because none of us can pay an infinite price.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. So here we have this perfect verse in Philippians that talks about him morphing into humanity but retaining his divinity. And that’s just, it’s beyond our comprehension really.

John McLarty: It really is. 

Kimberly Faith: And you know, 

John McLarty: And it  goes back to though, you know, one of the, it could almost fit in as one of these evidences is that he became, that word, he became flesh. That morphing, that’s, you know, God, fully God, yet became man

Kimberly Faith:  Right. 

John McLarty: So he could pay the price.

Kimberly Faith: Right. Well, right. And yeah. So can he unmorph, right? 

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: Is that a word? Is that one of our new unwords that we’re mentioning?

John McLarty: We’ll make it one.

Kimberly Faith: Another kind of thought about this, this idea about the incarnation itself. You know, just understanding that he, the Bible hints that he also set aside some of his attributes. You know, like, for example, in Luke 2:52, it says Jesus grew in wisdom. Does that mean that he set aside his omniscience? Do you know what I mean? I mean, God doesn’t have to grow in wisdom, but his humanity caused him to be so much in the experience that he actually had to grow in wisdom? I mean, I don’t know the answer. That’s just what the Bible says.

John McLarty: Well, and then there are some verses where they ask Jesus some questions. When will the end times be? And he said that’s for the father to know.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. I didn’t think about that. Yeah, that’s another good example. So he became voluntarily contained within a knowledge of humanity to some degree.

John McLarty: Sure, we know he gave up his omnipresence

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: Because he was in a fixed place at a fixed time.

Kimberly Faith: Right. But then he could, you know, appear walking on the water too. You know what I  mean? It’s just like, we don’t know to what degree that he gave up the attributes. But maybe it was just enough so we could understand that he was actually who he actually was, you know, because we’re such limited humans. So, just a side note before we start into the exhibits, but, you know, we have such a profoundly wrong image of God. It’s been damaged absolutely to the, I don’t nth degree because that is Satan’s strategy. If he can damage our view of God, I mean, he did it in the garden, right, in the perfection of the garden. 

John McLarty: Right. 

Kimberly Faith: He was able to undermine God’s love, his

John McLarty: Satan’s lies.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. His righteousness

John McLarty:  Casting doubt on God.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. And this union is such amazing proof of his love. Because the Bible says that Jesus died for us when we hated him, when we were his enemies, right? And if you imagine

John McLarty: While we were yet sinners. Christ died for us.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. And sin is a violation of God’s love.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: You know, that’s what it is. But think about this. You know, two people who are fundamentally irreconcilably opposed to each other, so much so they can’t even be in the same room. I’ve got clients like that who, it is very sad. And you would never see one of them, I’m going to move into your house. I’m going to cook dinner for you. I’m going to cry with you. I’m going to laugh with you. You would never join, we would never join ourselves to someone who despises us or we consider beneath us. And this thought of the incarnation, that that’s exactly what Jesus did, should, you know, take that unhealthy fear and all those disproportionately evil thoughts we have about God, blaming him, condemning him, judging him, and turn those on its head.

John McLarty: Yeah. That’s very true. God himself came to live among us.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: So he could redeem us.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. He came to enemy territory to bring us back, you know?

John McLarty: That is proof of his amazing love.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. No person left behind. That was Jesus. And, you know, I think that, that kind of sets us up for the third segment, which is the exhibits, which I can’t wait to get to. You’ve already kind of found another one. And keep in mind, this is not an exclusive or exhaustive.

John McLarty: Comprehensive.

Kimberly Faith:  It’s not exhaustive list. Right. So we’re going to just start with exhibit one, First Timothy 3:16. Do you want to read that?

John McLarty: Sure. Very powerful. And you know, this, just the deity of Christ, obviously, is all through here that Christ was and is God. God, First Timothy 3:16, God was manifest in the flesh. Just notice that. God was, well, who was manifest in the flesh? Jesus. Justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. That’s a beautiful arc.

John McLarty: It is.

Kimberly Faith: You know? And there’s, and think about that. There’s no moment in this verse where Paul says, he shed the flesh to reenter glory as a pure spirit.

John McLarty: No. No. He’s in a resurrected body.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. It’s a continuous line of embodiment. And now the body went from the regular body like we have to the transformed body and the glorified body, but it was a body nonetheless.

John McLarty: And then it says our body will be like unto his glorious body. So we’re a body, soul, and spirit, mankind is. 

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: And we will always be body, soul, and spirit.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes.

John McLarty: Well, that’s very interesting. It says that we’re going to have a body like unto his glorious body. So he has a body.

Kimberly Faith: And I think that you might be on one of the other exhibits.

John McLarty: Yeah, it could be.

Kimberly Faith: But you know what? That’s great. It’s just so good how all this ties together. So exhibit two, Luke 24:39, This was Jesus where he’s saying, behold, my hands, my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see; for a spirit does not have flesh and bones to as you see, I have.

This is after he’s been resurrected.

John McLarty: This is the risen Jesus

Kimberly Faith: Yes. 

John Mclarty: Appearing to his disciples.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And they were kind of convinced he was a ghost. Okay? But he was like, nope. I’m not going to let that misunderstanding stand for a moment. And then he asked for food.

John McLarty: Had a piece of fish with the disciples.

Kimberly Faith: Right. And so this was Jesus in a body. His transformed glorified body.

John McLarty: Right. After the cross.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: After the resurrection.

Kimberly Faith: Exhibit three, John 20:27. You want to read that?

John McLarty: Yeah. This is Thomas. Jesus talking to Thomas and Thomas was doubting, the term doubting Thomas. But Jesus said, reach, this is John 20:27, Reach your finger here and look at my hands. Reach your hand here and put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.

Kimberly Faith: And Thomas fell to his knees and says, my Lord and my God. That’s kind of the whole point of this podcast, that we be more like Thomas who, it just caused him to profoundly worship like, this is my savior. I’m looking at him with my physical eyes. I’m looking at the scars. And, you know, he had the blessing to be able to see the transformed Jesus, but there’s no reason we shouldn’t have the same attitude

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: If we believe God’s word, right?

John McLarty: So clearly, there’s an idea here that God did not come in the flesh and then died and just went back to the spirit.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: Or a spiritual form.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: This is post resurrection.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Isn’t this exciting?

John McLarty: It is. It really is.

Kimberly Faith: It’s so exciting because it just gives us kinship with Jesus. And we’re going to talk about that exhibit too. Not right this minute, but we’re going to talk about that exhibit.

John McLarty: Well, this rolls right into exhibit four too.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes. Go ahead and read Acts 1:11.

John McLarty: It’s Acts 1:11. And I think it’s some angels standing there

Kimberly Faith: This is an angel. Yeah. Uh-huh.

John McLarty: The disciples are standing there kind of in shock. 

Kimberly Faith: Like, where’d he go? 

John McLarty: And, yeah. And the angel says, This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will, so come in like manner as you saw him go into heaven. This same Jesus.

Kimberly Faith: And what did they see go into heaven? Not a spirit. 

John McLarty: His body. 

Kimberly Faith: It was his body, right? And again, this

John McLarty: The resurrected body.

Kimberly Faith: He’s going to come. The angel’s saying, he’s going to come in the same way you saw him go. And, so he didn’t go to heaven as a spirit.

John McLarty: And I think you’ve got another word, another Kim word here, Kim. He did not dematerialize.

Kimberly Faith: No. I’m going to give that one to you, dad.

John McLarty: I’m not sure. That’s in the dictionary.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. He did not dematerialize, well, okay, dad. I put this outline together

John McLarty: Good word. I like that.

Kimberly Faith: To give, I put this outline together to make sure we don’t forget anything important.

John McLarty: It just has a picture. As he ascended, he didn’t like, you know, break into

Kimberly Faith: Defuse into the atmosphere.

John McLarty: A ghost. 

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

John McLarty: You know, a ghost like, being.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And then let’s, let’s exhibit five, just moving right along. Hebrews 4:14-15 and 7:25. And this, and it talks about, it says, seeing then that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin. You know, this is so incredible because,  you know, of course, the Jews were very familiar with the office of the high priest, right?

John McLarty: Exactly.

Kimberly Faith: And Hebrews was written, I mean, the actual name of the book implies it’s written to the Jews, right?

John McLarty: It is. Yes.

Kimberly Faith: And so it’s like, hey, your high, this high priest, he’s still there. And he’s, you know, he sympathizes with us because he’s been us. He has been hungry. He was exhausted. He was tortured. He wept. He bled. He died. And that experience didn’t just evaporate at the resurrection. And because it says he always lives to make intercession for us before the father.

John McLarty: That is powerful.

Kimberly Faith: It’s so powerful. And again, going back to creating this element of thankfulness and gratefulness and awe and wonder in us, the son is interceding at the father’s right hand in a body that still bears the marks of what it costs to save us.

John McLarty: That is amazing.

Kimberly Faith: That’s so powerful.

John McLarty: That is thought provoking and it is just worthy of worship.

Kimberly Faith: Worthy of worship, yes.

John McLarty: Somebody that’s given all. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yeah. 

John McLarty:  And God giving all. 

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. 

John McLarty: Not just somebody, God giving all that we might live.

Kimberly Faith: Absolutely. So exhibit six comes out of Revelations 1:7 and Matthew 24:30. Do you want to read it?

John McLarty: I love this one. Yeah. Behold, he is coming with clouds and every eye shall see him, even they who pierced him and all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of him. So he’s coming, when he comes in the clouds and every eye shall see him.

Kimberly Faith: Even those who pierced him.

John McLarty: Even those who pierced him.

Kimberly Faith: Quite literally, the soldiers who drove those spikes through his hands will see him. And they will know, they will recognize him. They will recognize the wounds. You can’t recognize wounds on a spirit.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: You know? Yeah. And then Matthew says they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. I want to just pause on this title, the son of man. I looked this up because I was so curious. Now, why did Jesus say son of man? Well, I didn’t know this until I started studying this. But he used that title approximately 80 to 88 times across the four gospels. And he used it more than son of God.

John McLarty: Interesting.

Kimberly Faith: Isn’t that interesting? It’s almost as if his highest claim of messianic, you know, his messianic identity was I am wrapped in flesh. I am the son of man. And I just thought that was really interesting because they will see the son of man. They’re going to recognize Jesus.

John McLarty: This could be another exhibit, Kim, but he became our kinsman redeemer.

Kimberly Faith: We’re going to talk about that.

John McLarty: That whole idea  is that one of the exhibits?

Kimberly Faith: Uh-huh. Yeah. I think it is. So well, I think it is. Well, maybe it isn’t. Yes. It is.

Actually, it’s exhibit 12. I had to think about that because we’ve got so many exhibits. Okay. So we’re now at exhibit seven, Zechariah 12:10. So we’re going back to the Old Testament.

John McLarty: This is so exciting to see the Old Testament refer to Jesus and the sacrifice.

Kimberly Faith: And his incarnation.

John McLarty: Yeah, and we see that in Job also, but that may be one of your examples.

Kimberly Faith: It is one of the exhibits.

John McLarty: Zechariah 12:10, he was recognized by humans. Then they will look on me whom they pierced. I just have to pause right there for our listeners. This is Old Testament.

 The Old Testament saints knew about the coming of

Kimberly Faith: The messiah.

John McLarty: The messiah, the lamb of God. 

Kimberly Faith: The incarnate. The incarnate messiah. 

John McLarty: They were told right here. They will look on they whom they pierced. Yes. They will mourn for him as one mourns for his only son and grieve for him as one that grieves for a firstborn.

Kimberly Faith: You know what that makes me think about? Do you remember when Jesus was offered at the temple as a baby? And there were two people there, Simon and the lady. What was her name?

John McLarty: Was it, it wasn’t Ananias.

Kimberly Faith: No.

John McLarty: Simon and 

Kimberly Faith: Anna? 

John McLarty: Anna. Maybe Anna.

Kimberly Faith: Anyway, like there were two people there who knew. They’re like, this is the Messiah.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: There were people and they were, of course, you know, they’ve been born before Christ.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: They knew about this prophecy in Zechariah. You know, they knew that this was the Messiah.

John McLarty: They did. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. 

John McLarty: And they actually kind of prophesied at that time through the spirit.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes. And I think it was Simon. That’s right. It was Simon. So, but Zechariah was written centuries before the crucifixion. And mourning here is not some abstract sorrow. You it’s kind of a raw crushing grief of recognition. Like if you, you know, I mean, I think about the grief that we’ve suffered through with people that we’ve lost, you know, and people that have died, physical death, right? And, you know, we remember them as they were, this body.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: And, you know, this kind of recognition that Zechariah is talking about, it can’t happen to a spirit. If we’re suffering because we recognize they’re mourning for them who they pierced, and grieve for him like a person grieves to the firstborn, this is a body. This is a body of some sort, I would think.

John McLarty: Yeah, and it’s amazing that this is also a prophecy, a vision in the Old Testament of Jesus coming and being pierced

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

John McLarty: But that it’s of his resurrected body.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: They will look on me whom they pierced.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And then also in Zechariah, this is exhibit eight, Zechariah 14:4. I love this verse only because, I think I love it because I’ve actually stood on the Mount Of Olives outside of Jerusalem and imagined him coming back. Well, you want to read Zechariah 14:4?

John McLarty: Yeah. And again, this has to involve a resurrected body. And in that day, his feet shall stand on the Mount Of Olives, which faces Jerusalem in the East. And the Mount Of Olives shall be split in two from east to west, making a very large valley.

Kimberly Faith: I mean, feet are feet. 

John Mclarty: Yep. 

Kimberly Faith: And a spirit doesn’t have feet as far as we know. When I was in Jerusalem a few years ago and stood there looking, you know, from the East towards Jerusalem. I was just trying to imagine Jesus coming back and that happening.

John McLarty: I bet that was, yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Splitting, you know? 

John McLarty: Exciting experience. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Splitting that mountain. I know it’s going to happen. So moving on exhibit nine, Revelations 19:11-16. And again, this is very, very indicative, and I think demonstrates that there’s a body involved here. And, I’ll read that. Now when I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. First of all, let’s just stop there. Horse. That’s a physical image, right? And he who sat on him was called faithful and true, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire. On his head were many crowns. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called the word of God.

John McLarty: We know who that is.

Kimberly Faith: We do know who that is. And the armies of heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed him on white horses. Now out of his mouth goes a sharp sword that with it he should strike the nations. And he himself will rule them with a rod of iron and he has on his robe and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I mean, this is very descriptive.

John McLarty: The hallelujah chorus, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

Kimberly Faith: Right. And so, you know, I mean, Jesus

John McLarty: And this is an identifiable person.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. It’s interesting.

John McLarty: Called the word of God.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. 

John McLarty: In the beginning was the word and the word was God.

Kimberly Faith: Right. And you know, I think there was a passage where Jesus told his disciples, a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have. You know? That’s very indicative of what he was describing as his existence. I mean, and again, we’re not making a, you know, blanket statement that Jesus is forever incarnate. We don’t really know the answer to that, but we know what the Bible is telling us. Seems like there’s a good case for it, you know? So let’s go on, to exhibit 10 in First Corinthians 15:20- 21 and Philippians 3:20- 21. You want to read both those verses?

John McLarty: I love that, yeah. But now Christ is risen from the dead and has become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. Then Philippians 3:20-21, Who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to his glorious body according to the working by which he is able to subdue all things to himself.

Kimberly Faith: That’s pretty strong evidence.

John McLarty: That is. So he’s the first fruits of our glorious body. And we’re going to have a glorious body like unto his glorious body.

Kimberly Faith: You know, first fruits in ancient Israel, the first fruits of the harvest were the first sample which was offered to God. And it determined the character and quality of everything that would follow. The fact that the Bible characterizes Christ’s resurrected body as a first fruit means the harvest will match the first fruit. That’s pretty remarkable.

John McLarty: It is.

Kimberly Faith: You know? 

John McLarty: Pretty clear.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, Philippians reinforces that our eternal future is not some disembodied cherub floating around on a cloud somewhere. It says conformed to his glorious body.

John McLarty: That’s really exciting because we were created in the image of God, interestingly enough, body, soul, and spirit. And upon death and our resurrected body, we are still a body, soul, and spirit forever.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. That’s a good point. Because I think that we have this, really kind of disheartening image of what heaven’s going to be like. Look, the way I like to look at heaven is look,  I mean, sorry. What we enjoy in our body right now will be on such a, in such a magnitude when we are in our transformed body that we can’t even contain that information. You know, when John the Revelator was given the revelation, right, the book, there were things he was not allowed to write down.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: And I don’t know if that’s because it would blow our minds so much that it would just seem like a great myth or because words can’t contain it. I kind of suspect it’s the latter.

John McLarty: So different, than this image of we’re all just going to be angels floating around on clouds, strumming on harps. No, we’re going to have a body.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: Like unto his glorious body.

Kimberly Faith: And I like to believe that

John McLarty: A resurrected body.

Kimberly Faith: In heaven, when we have, you know, whatever that even means, the new heavens, the new earth, that all the things that I really love here, like, I love to, I love to design homes, I love to landscape, love to write music, I love to cook. I love to play pickleball. All those things we’ll enjoy in a degree that will be without sin. It will be without flaw. It will be without the impediments of the fallen world that we live in. Can you even wrap your mind around that?

John McLarty: I have thought about that, that we have, you know, what God has in store for us, we can hardly imagine.

Kimberly Faith: Hardly.

John McLarty: But it’s through his love and kindness. And you think about just this life and this world and the loving kindness God shows us. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes. 

John McLarty: That’s just going to be multiplied.

Kimberly Faith: Absolutely. Now, before we started the podcast, you brought up something and we’ve inserted exhibit 11. And exhibit 11 comes from Acts 7:55-56. And this is the stoning of Stephen.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: And so, let me just read that. It says, but he, talking about Stephen, as he’s being stoned and is dying, being full of the holy spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God and said, look, I see the heavens open and the son of man standing at the right hand of God.

John McLarty: Amazing. 

Kimberly Faith: Wow. 

John McLarty: Interesting. The son of man.

Kimberly Faith: He knew. I mean, he knew what Jesus looked like, right?

John McLarty: Exactly.

Kimberly Faith: And he was still alive in his flesh when he said that. Steven sees Jesus standing. That would not be a spirit floating, right? He calls him the son of man, the same word that Jesus used for himself. And so it’s just another exhibit. So exhibit 12 comes out of Romans 8:16 and 17. And this is the one you keep bringing up, so I’m going to let you read it. So exciting, right?

John McLarty: This is one that wouldn’t normally be thought of in this context, but the idea of being joint heirs with the God-man. So Romans 8:16-17, The spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. And if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ. If indeed we suffer with him that we may be also glorified together.

Kimberly Faith: Joint heirs with Christ.

John McLarty: So when you think of heirs, like just in our worldly structure here, heirs are like typically the children.

Kimberly Faith: Right.The beneficiaries of a trust.

John McLarty: But they’re all children. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty:  You know, you don’t have an heir that’s

Kimberly Faith: An alien. 

John McLarty: Not just an alien or a ghost.

Kimberly Faith: Right. The ghost heir.

John McLarty: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  We don’t have the ghost heir.

John McLarty: And heirs implies a commonality.

Kimberly Faith: It does, an equality of some sort. Yes. Because the very structure of that relationship demands that Jesus remain a distinct identifiable person, right?

John McLarty: And just for our listeners, ponder that. Joint heirs with Christ. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. 

John McLarty: We’re heirs with him.

Kimberly Faith: Right. I mean, he became one of us so thoroughly that he now, he was even willing to share his inheritance with us. Think about that for just a minute. I hadn’t thought about this till we just started talking about this. Imagine a king who, a prince who is the heir to the greatest wealth on earth, going to the enemy, his worst enemy, and saying, I want to make you equal with me. I want you to inherit everything I have with me. And by the way, I’m going to suffer horribly so you can do that. And then he enters into that suffering. And he conquers it. And he pays the price of this criminal who was his enemy and then brings the enemy back to the kingdom.

John McLarty: And makes them joint heirs.

Kimberly Faith: And that’s right. And so you’re going to share everything I have. We cannot wrap our minds around that, you know? We really can’t. And then, the kind of the last exhibit. And again, this is not an exhaustive list. I hope that this podcast, this subject will incite in anyone who’s listening the desire to study God’s word and find more. Okay? Because I’m sure there’s more. But we’re going back to the beginning of time in the book of Job 19: 25- 26. And this is such a powerful verse. Job at, you know, in the middle of the suffering, Satan has taken away his health, his wealth, his family. And he says, present tense, I know that my redeemer lives and he shall stand at last on the earth. After my skin is destroyed, I know that in my flesh I shall see God.

John McLarty: And this is so amazing because this is Job, so Old Testament and not even of the nation of Israel. 

Kimberly Faith: That’s right, before Israel. 

John McLarty: And he says, I know my Redeemer lives.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

John McLarty: So there needed to be a redeemer.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Thousands of years before Christ became incarnate.

John McLarty: And he shall stand at last on the earth.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. And he says, in my flesh, I shall see God. You know, you don’t see a spirit in your flesh. You have to see, flesh can only see flesh. We talk about human design. Our body was designed as an antenna to our soul to communicate with the physical world. Job is making it very clear that there’s this eternal, visible, glorious record of Jesus, and, you know, that appears to be something that is very close to who we are in a way.

John McLarty: Identifiable.

Kimberly Faith: Identifiable.

John McLarty: And a joint heir.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: These are powerful exhibits.

Kimberly Faith: It is. And I just want to bring it back to what Thomas said, you know, when he was doubting and he said, he fell on his knees and he says, my Lord and my God. Still our response, that should be our response to every minute of this wonderful life that we’ve been given.

John McLarty: It’s like what you have done for me. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. 

John McLarty: And now made me joint heirs.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes.

John McLarty: That you had to give your life to become incarnate 

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: Live among us, be abused by mankind

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

John Mclarty: Crucified on the cross. But my Lord, my God, my friend, my redeemer. And joint heir. That’s powerful.

Kimberly Faith: We can’t even really wrap our mind around it. But, you know, if you’re listening to this podcast and you’re not born again, let’s just take that group first. If you’ve never received Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, hopefully, you have heard verses that make it abundantly clear just the great sacrifice that Jesus gave up when he became incarnate. He did that so that you could be a joint heir with him and own the kingdom of God. And, you know, in the beatitudes, Jesus said, blessed are the poor in spirit. What that means is, we must come to Jesus for salvation knowing that we have nothing we can do on our own. And that verse

John McLarty: Amen.

Kimberly Faith: Also applies to born again believers. We must live in relationship with Jesus knowing that we are bankrupt without him.

John McLarty: Humbly.

Kimberly Faith: Humbly.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And, you know, the fact that he entered into, he came and gave up so much for us. As born again believers, if you have the image of God that’s been corrupted, and you like, I was talking to a lady in my office the other day and she said, I blame God for this situation. And I looked her in the eye and I said, God understands that you blame him because you’ve been given a distorted view of who he is. He understands that you’ve never been told the truth about who he is. And that was, and so I started telling her who God really says he is. And that the only reason she has a distorted view is because Satan never wants her to know God for who he says he is. He has to lie about himself to make, like you always say, to make us follow him or have a distorted view of God.

John McLarty: Right. Satan has to deceive us. God wants to tell us the truth.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. But we have such hope as believers. And I would just encourage anyone listening to this who’s born again, who is not living out the abundant satisfied life, you have a choice. If you have been born again and Jesus has become the righteousness of God in you, which is what the Bible says happens

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: Then you are empowered to, and the last podcast we talked about earlier in June about, about the Holy Spirit, you are empowered by the Holy Spirit to be transformed, you know? And we are going to be transformed from glory to glory. We have, Jesus wants to do that in our life. He wants to take this horrible flesh and subject it to our born again spirit so that we can glorify him, so we can have a satisfied life, an abundant life, and enjoy just a preview really of what’s going to be in heaven. You know? What’s going to be forever.

John McLarty: And what’s so interesting is the born again soul achieves that immediately.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right.

John McLarty: Made into the righteousness of God. We have the mind of Christ. But then our body is going to be like unto his glorious body.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Yes.

John McLarty: So God is going to complete the task.

Kimberly Faith: He is. He’s going to complete the task. And again, I just can’t emphasize this enough that we have been given, as born again believers, we have a divine purpose, and that is to glorify God while we’re here. We have a, that divine purpose has a practical purpose that is lost souls, bringing lost souls into the kingdom because lost souls, this is a thought that the  Lord gave me as I was writing the textbook for the Foundations of Faith book, lost souls are the only currency we take with us to heaven.

John McLarty: Right.

Kimberly Faith: And I mean, think about that. It’s not our bank account. It’s not our land. It’s not, I mean, it’s nothing else. The souls of our families, the souls of our friends, the souls of people in China, the people in Iran, those, all we do for God’s glory should be producing not just the fruit of the spirit, but the end result is lost souls being saved.

John McLarty: Fellow joint heirs of Christ.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. That’s a good way to put it, dad. That’s a good way to put it. So anyway, I just hope this has inspired the people listening to this as much as it has inspired me.

John McLarty: It really enhances our wonder and sense of worship. I think thankfulness, what Jesus gave up for us and then what a glorious outcome he has in store for us. We experience it immediately upon salvation.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

John McLarty: But it’s for eternity.

Kimberly Faith: It’s for eternity. 

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