Have you ever wondered if you, or anyone you know, has ever really experienced unconditional love from another human? Everyone wants to be loved just for who they are, and because we are created in the image of God, there is a part of us which wants to love others that way too. But most of us keep a scorecard. You did them a favor and now you need a favor from them, but they ghosted you. Feelings are hurt and you suddenly don’t want to do anything else for them. In this episode, Kimberly Faith and John McLarty ask two questions: Can we really love someone else unconditionally? And, if so, are we actually doing it?
Agape love (the highest, most selfless form of love) is the gold standard. Romans 5:8, explains Christ died for us while we were still sinners. And here’s the surprising part: the opposite of love isn’t hate. It’s selfishness. Think about Jesus in Gethsemane. His closest friends fell asleep while He suffered, then ran when the soldiers came, and yet—He still went to the cross for them. His sacrifice was bigger than their failure. From 1 Corinthians 13 to John 13:34 and Galatians 2:20, we are reminded that we can’t manufacture agape love on our own. God’s love can’t and won’t flow through our life if we haven’t surrendered to Him. Love only becomes unconditional when it comes from God, and when we let Christ love through us, those around us WILL see and experience this marvelous gift of unconditional love.
Key Takeaways
Jacob Paul: Welcome to the Truth in Love podcast with your hosts Kimberly Faith and John Mac. The Truth in Love podcast seeks to present God’s timeless truth through the lens of his remarkable love.
Kimberly Faith: Well dad, it’s October 13, and here we are, talking about love.
John McLarty: Talking about love.
Kimberly Faith: I’m very excited about this topic. I know I say
John McLarty: God’s love.
Kimberly Faith: I know I say that just about every time, but, you know, I was listening to a sermon recently by Nathaniel Stevens, who’s a lead pastor at Nags Head Church where my daughter Grace goes to church. And he, I don’t remember the title of the sermon, but I was so impacted by this idea about can we really love unconditionally. And so this idea for this podcast kind of comes from his sermon and just kind of how the Lord is using it to really challenge me to check, am I, number one, able to love unconditionally? And number two, am I actually doing it?
John McLarty: And that’s a great set of questions to explore.
Kimberly Faith: I think it is. Because the fact is we all want to have it. You know, everyone wants to be loved unconditionally. I mean, lines from songs, popular love songs, just love me for me. I want somebody who will love me always, you know, all this idea about having everlasting unconditional love. And the question is, you know really
John McLarty: That really, you know, that’s true. And we want to love others.
Kimberly Faith: We do.
John McLarty: It’s unpleasant. The idea of going around hating everybody.
Kimberly Faith: That’s true.
John McLarty: That’s kind of a terrible thought.
Kimberly Faith: That’s a terrible thought. Yeah. Yeah.
John McLarty: We want to be loved, and we also want to love. I think that’s a human default preference.
Kimberly Faith: Absolutely. I think it merits, before we kind of jump into this topic, though, also understanding what kind of love we’re talking about. Because, you know, in the Bible, we hear about, agape love, which is God’s selfless, unconditional love, his love for humanity. We hear about philia love, which is brotherly love between friends, kind of like what Jonathan and David experienced. Storge, which is family, natural affection. And, of course, the Song of Solomon is full of the eros love, which is the more erotic love. And I think it’s important when we’re talking about unconditional love to first define what that means. So clearly, we’re talking about agape love, which is selfless love, and the kind we all want to experience, and because we are created in the image of God, like you said, we all do want to be able to give that to people. So I think it’s, I think for me, this was useful because I like to believe I’m giving people unconditional love. And I’m very grateful for God’s word being the measuring stick about whether that’s really happening.
John McLarty: Yeah. And here’s kind of a great challenge. Just immediately challenge the idea of is our love the unconditional love? It’s out of Romans 5:8. And it says, but God demonstrates his love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Kimberly Faith: That’s such a good point.
John McLarty: So that’s
Kimberly Faith: That’s the standard.
John McLarty: We all want to love, but then that brings in the unconditional aspect. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And I appreciate you bringing that up because that is the gold standard. I mean, another way to look at it is, because sin is a violation of God’s love, right? And so while we were violating his love
John McLarty: Yes.
Kimberly Faith: He died for us. Paid the ultimate price. And I think this is really one of the most important questions I think I’ve challenged to ask myself lately is when does my love actually become unconditional? And I think it’s because, I think we live in a world, I work in a world that it’s quid pro quo. You know?
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: If I prepare your trust, you’re going to pay me. And if you don’t, we’re not going to have a good day.
John McLarty: Very conditioned based.
Kimberly Faith: Yes. It’s conditional versus unconditional. And I think this is how this bleeds over into all of our relationships, including our relationship with God, you know?
John McLarty: Absolutely.
Kimberly Faith: We condition how we’re going to love God with all our heart. We’re commanded to do it love, what’s that verse love God with all of our heart.
John McLarty: Well, that’s yeah. That’s kind of another gold standard is how can we do this? And this is the great commandments. So this is out of Matthew 22:36.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: And then one of them asked Jesus a question. So verse 36, master, which is the great commandment in the law? So they’re kind of looking to trick him. And he said, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: So he sums it, Jesus sums it all up. But think about the challenge of verse 37. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul, and all thy mind.
Kimberly Faith: I think there’s an earlier reference in Matthew where Jesus says in all thy strength.
John McLarty: Yeah.
Kimberly Faith: You know? And that’s actually very encouraging. Because if it is a commandment, which we know it is, that means we’re capable of doing it. And I think that we have to, but I think it’s fair to say if we’re self evaluating to say, but that’s not actually what I’m doing with my life. I’m actually operating more of it in a conditional love. Like, how many times am I going to be nice to this person and show my love for this person when they continually violate my love? Where does that, where do I draw the line? And are we supposed to draw a line? I mean, I think there’s a valid point for some point saying enough is enough. But I think in our present relationships where the Lord has put us in the lives of each other, we have to evaluate, am I giving this love to this person, even our own children or our parents or maybe our team, office team, in order to receive something in exchange? Or have we gotten to the point where we don’t have an expectation?
John McLarty: It’s like, how are we, how do we do that? How can we do that?
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: What’s the gauge for that? And if we are doing it, where does that come from?
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: Right. That’s kind of what we’re exploring here.
Kimberly Faith: Yes. And I think it’s, I think we need to start because I just, at the beginning, we clarified what kind of love we’re talking about. We’re talking about agape love. We’re talking about God’s love, which is selflessness. A lot of times when, you know, I’m having discussions with people who’ve maybe had their heart broken, I’ll ask them that question. Well, what kind of love are you looking for? And a lot of times people will, you know, I mean, this is a great discussion. They’ll say, well, I would like compassion. I would like somebody who cares, somebody who anticipates my needs. And so once that list gets started, I’ll ask them, what’s the opposite of this kind of love that you want? And most people will say hate.
John McLarty: Hate.
Kimberly Faith: But the answer is selfishness, right? And so, the Bible is so good to give us the absolute gold standard definition of love out of First Corinthians 13. And, let’s just read that because I think that’s a good place to start this discussion.
John McLarty: Yeah. I’ll read that. So this is First Corinthians 13:4-8. Love suffers long and is kind. Love does not envy. Love does not parade itself, is not puffed up, does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil, does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, and endures all things. Love never fails.
Kimberly Faith: I mean, Jesus is the only one who demonstrated
John McLarty: That is a high standard.
Kimberly Faith: It’s such a high standard.
John McLarty: But that’s God’s love.
Kimberly Faith: It is.
John McLarty: So for God, actually, that’s easy
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: Because God is love.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah.
John McLarty: That’s his nature.
Kimberly Faith: Kim isn’t love. Dad isn’t love. God is love, right?
John McLarty: Yeah.
Kimberly Faith: And I appreciate you saying that because that gives us our starting point. We are not capable of loving unconditionally unless it is God’s love, God who is love is the one doing it through us.
John McLarty: That’s exactly true.
Kimberly Faith: And I want to make sure that everyone kind of gets their mind around that because I’m still trying to get my mind around that. Because we’re so prone to be independent from God and think, oh, I can love this person well without letting God do it through me.
John McLarty: Well, you go back, and I’ll just do a little testimony here. But when I was told I was a sinner, of course my testimony is that made me mad. Well, I had the wrong impression of sin. I thought sin was, you know, murder, you know, theft, you know,
Kimberly Faith: The big ones.
John McLarty: Yeah. Yeah. You know, Grand Theft Auto. And
Kimberly Faith: Dad, bring up the video game.
John McLarty: A video game. The big sins. But then what the Lord showed me is that sin is selfishness. And I thought, I’m selfish all the time.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLart: And once the Lord, the spirit showed me that sin is not necessarily hate. Hate is sin.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: But sin is selfishness.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: I’ll just give an example people can relate to. If you just were walking down the street and saw somebody that had been mugged and, you know, they’re bloody. And they’ve got, you know, injuries, and you just went over and spit on them and kicked them, and maybe they had some pocket change left and you stole their money, that’d be pretty hateful, right?
Kimberly Faith: Be pretty hateful.
John McLarty: Yeah. But everybody would agree that’s a sin.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: But what if you just rushed on by and just ignored the person?
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: And you didn’t hate him, hate on him.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: You just were selfish.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: Like, oh, I’ve gotta be so, I’ve gotta be somewhere in ten minutes. So that selfishness, that ignoring, that’s kind of like, you know
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. That’s such a good example.
John McLarty: The good Samaritan, you know
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: But that’s sin also.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: That’s just as much sin.
Kimberly Faith: And it is pure selfishness.
John McLarty: It’s just selfishness. And who can say if you examine yourself
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: Oh, I don’t have any selfishness in me.
Kimberly Faith: But you want that big piece of dessert.
John McLarty: Yeah.
Kimberly Faith: You know, it’s part of the Adamic nature. I mean, our flesh always wants what it wants. And, you know, the whole pivot point really where we become capable of loving unconditionally is when we are born again.
John McLarty: Absolutely.
Kimberly Faith: Because without Jesus Christ who is love, in giving us his nature, which is love, right? Love, justice, righteousness. We’ve talked about that a lot. But without having his nature in our soul and in our spirit, we’re incapable of anything but really mercenary love, you know, which really questions whether that is, that’s certainly not agape love because it’s selfishness. Even the most altruistic person who says, well, I’m going to give a million dollars of my money to cure HIV in Africa or whatever the case may be, as much as you hate to even say this to them, but the motivation is pressing that I feel good about myself button or I’ve done something good button, and you’re incapable of doing it for a purely selfless reason because your soul and spirit are still dominated by the sin nature, which sin is, like you said, selfishness. That’s all it is. And love is selflessness.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: And when we receive the gift of salvation, we are made free from sin. We’ve been set free from sin, our soul and spirit. Our flesh is not any better than the day we’re born again. But then we are incapable of engaging in God’s love.
John McLarty: Yeah. And that’s so important. We’re a new creature in Christ. We’ve been given Christ’s righteousness and the mind of Christ in our soul. That’s so key. So in our inner man.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: And like you said, the flesh is unchanged. The flesh is still just as selfish as it ever was for a Christian.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. It always wants what it wants. And it’s not going to give in unless we continue to starve it and I don’t mean, like, not feed ourselves food. I’m talking about starve the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, the things that when we feed those things, they roar louder, you know, because they have more energy. They have more, they’ve been fed, so they’re going to overpower our soul and spirit from the standpoint of what is manifested in our life.
John McLarty: Correct.
Kimberly Faith: And it’s, you know, I know we all could talk about pictures of Jesus and the selflessness that he demonstrated while he was incarnate. But I think in the Garden Of Gethsemane is just such a great picture that everybody can relate to. You know, Jesus is sweating drops of blood. He’s begging his father, you know, like, is this the only way? He knows what’s coming because he’s already in the future, right? And the Bible tells us in Luke 22, it says he prayed more earnest well, he first, he asks his disciples. He’s overwhelmed with sorrow. He asks his closest guys, just stay awake and pray with him.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: And, you know, they had to know he was suffering. They had to know that. And the fact that they fell asleep instead of praying and, again, I’m not judging them. I’m just telling the story.
John McLarty: Yeah. No in Matthew 26:40, he says, what? Could you not watch with me for one hour?
Kimberly Faith: Right. Right. And meanwhile, he’s praying. His sweat is like great drops of blood falling into the ground. They had to see that he was wrestling with something, and they may not have, and I don’t really know that they completely understood what was going to happen, what was about to happen. But here he is getting ready to die for their sins. He’s in anguish. He asked them just to pray, and they couldn’t even stay awake. In fact, when the soldiers showed up, they all ran, you know?
John McLarty: And he still loved them.
Kimberly Faith: And he still said, he didn’t say, you know, these guys, I’m not going to go to the cross and die for them.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: They couldn’t even pray with me, and they saw I was just suffering. And I like what you said earlier about the kind of the analogous story to the good Samaritan. There have been so many times in my life where I’ve been on my to-do list route, you know, and thinking about all the things I need to get done, and legitimate things, not illegitimate, you know, things. And the Lord, a soul shows up who obviously needs me to stop and has needs, maybe even salvation, you know? And I have struggled to stop what I’m doing and take on that love, that selflessness that comes only from Christ, and minister to that person instead of, you know, stopping, helping. Because you think of it. You talked about the person who had been beat up and was bloody. This is a soul that may be going to hell, which is a far worse predicament.
John McLarty: Yeah. They are in a sense beat up and bloodied
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: On their way to a bad destination.
Kimberly Faith: Right. And I think when we think of somebody who stopped, who did not fail, or who failed to show up for us and how we reacted to that person, the betrayal, that’s a great test of whether our love’s unconditional or conditional, you know?
John McLarty: Just think after the cross and the resurrection, Jesus came back to this group and appeared to them.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: And was like, you know, we’re still friends.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: You’re still my team.
Kimberly Faith: Well, he knew that the, I mean, I’m not going to pretend to know it was in God’s mind, but there was one element. It was bigger than his, his sacrifice was bigger than their failure.
John McLarty: Right. A good way to put it.
Kimberly Faith: That’s kind of a way I like to, our sacrifice needs to be bigger than the failure of our friends because it’s for the glory of God. Because Jesus never got as much as he gave. I mean, not even close. He never
John McLarty: Goes back to that verse that while we were yet sinners
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: Jesus died for us. Romans 5:8.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. He loved us enough to do something about our sin even though it was against him. And, you know, all sin is a violation of God’s love.
John McLarty: God’s love.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Because it’s selfishness. And, you know, so we know this standard that God has set. His love has no conditions attached and is offered to us even though we have nothing to give him. And so, really, the question, I mean, we know that love belongs to us when we’re born again. So the question is, really, are we even capable of loving like God does? And Jesus answers that for us in the verses, some of the verses you just read. But let’s read a couple more. Let’s read John 13:34 where it says, a new command I give you. A new command I give you. Love one another as I have loved you, so must you love one another. Well, if Jesus commanded it, then it’s possible.
John McLarty: Correct. And a similar verse, 15:12. My command is this, love each other as I have loved you. It’s possible
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: For us to love others as Christ loved us.
Kimberly Faith: But we have to do it
John McLarty: But how do we do that? How is that possible?
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And I want to, so before we kind of dig into that, I want to share some just a really powerful story that pastor Nathaniel shared during the sermon. He’s talking about his days in undergraduate school. He was in a secular university, and the subject of the old testament came up and the topic of God’s love. And, you know, he was already a born again believer, so he just explained this whole, you know, class. And it wasn’t a Christian school. The four kinds of love in the Bible. And when he got to the explanation of agape love, he said the classroom went silent. And then after, like, a very pregnant pause, one of the girls spoke up and said, you know, unconditional love sounds great in theory, but I’ve never seen it. So I’d rather stick to what I know.
John McLarty: Interesting.
Kimberly Faith: I was so challenged by that. Because if Jesus told us that we could, that we are commanded to love like he loves, which is unconditional, then I want to be the best evidence of God’s love to others, you know? That means we can do it.
John McLarty: Now, Kim, this is getting into a subject where, what did a preacher say the other day?
Kimberly Faith: Meddling.
John McLarty: Meddling a little bit. Because how in our flesh, how unlike this are we really?
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: I mean, our flesh is just, it’s a fight continually.
Kimberly Faith: Totally meddling.
John McLarty: Yeah.
Kimberly Faith: But I love it when God meddles.
John McLarty: But, yeah, it’s a challenge.
Kimberly Faith: I mean, I’m just thinking about being in that classroom. And then I just think about my own life. How many people can really look at me and say, I see unconditional love? Because that’s what Jesus commanded us to do. And I was like, oh, no. Lord. You know? And so, you know, how do we allow the love of God which is in us, because we are in Christ, which means we are in love, right? We are in his love. And, you know, I was thinking about
John McLarty: We’re a new creature in Christ.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right.
John McLarty: We have his very nature in our inner man, and that’s, like, the challenge.
Kimberly Faith: It is a challenge.
John McLarty: And people have to understand that.
Kimberly Faith: Well, you know, we need to understand first, and this is, I’m talking to myself. We can’t manufacture this love.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: This is not something we can create. We must let Christ do it through us because we’re going to keep score.
John McLarty: This isn’t reformation.
Kimberly Faith: No.
John McLarty: It’s regeneration.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right.
John McLarty: The born again nature
Kimberly Faith: That’s right.
John McLarty: All to God’s credit. But we can hide it. Like, hide it under a bushel.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Exactly.
John McLarty: We can obscure it. We can let it loose, or we can cover it up with the flesh.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right. And so one of the verses that the Lord brought to mind so I was like, Lord, from a practical standpoint, what is it that I need to do, as you say, to reveal that to people? Because it’s already in my soul, right? Jesus Christ lives in my soul. So this unconditional love is already present in me. And, one of the first verses I thought about, that the Lord laid on my heart, was Galatians 2:20, which says, I am crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh I’m paraphrasing a little bit. I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
John McLarty: And that’s a perfect concept, that’s a perfect verse for this concept. It’s no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
Kimberly Faith: Yes. He has to, you know, we talked about earlier, I think it may have been last week’s podcast. I can’t remember, but about the widow’s mite.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: And when Jesus said she gave all because she gave her whole living and how that what Jesus looks at isn’t what we give, it’s what we hold on to. And I think it’s the same principle with his love. We cannot let his love, his love will not flow through us in any area we have not surrendered or crucified to ourselves. So, you know, we can go to church on Sunday and hug people and shake hands, but then say, well, Monday through Friday on my job, that part of my life belongs to me. So whose love is going to be manifested Monday through Friday if that part of our life belongs to us instead of him? It’s going to be whatever scraps of love we can get, whatever that even looks like. But if we have put our job on the altar, so to speak, if my law practice belongs to Jesus in every respect, from what cases I take to how I talk to people to how I dress, to the words that I say, all is surrendered, then what people are going to see is God’s love. What that girl in the classroom had never seen, that’s what they’re going to see.
John McLarty: You know, I think that’s a good point. It’s not some just abstract doctrine.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right.
John McLarty: And we tend to as humans, as Christians, I guess as Christians, I guess the word would be compartmentalized.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: Like, oh, I’m going to show my love for God because I go to church on Sunday morning.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: That’s loving God.
Kimberly Faith: Or I give 10%.
John McLarty: Yes. But really, this is day by day, minute by minute. You get a phone call. You have your to do list.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: Something somebody else’s need
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: You know, pops up. And do you change course?
Kimberly Faith: You change course. And even, like, the person you know? I mean, I deal in adversarial job. I mean, there’s lots of people who are just insufferably mean, you know?
John McLarty: Somebody says something ugly to you.
Kimberly Faith: Snarky, you know, in court, on the record. You know, am I going to, if Jesus Christ is Lord of my courtroom life, then his love, his long suffering, his patience, his kindness, all those, the fruit of his spirit, and the manifestations of his love, are going to be what people see. And that is powerful. There’s no more powerful testimony that we have of who God is than to show love when we’re not being loved.
John McLarty: Yeah. And it’s interesting. I think, you know, Jesus told us and his disciples and all of us to love each other as I’ve loved you.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: And I think it would just, you know, paraphrase it a little bit, but it’s Jesus also said, by this shall all men know you’re my disciples, that ye love one another.
Kimberly Faith: That’s really good.
John McLarty: My point is that love, that unconditional love, it’s very recognizable.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: People go, oh, wow. That’s different.
Kimberly Faith: It’s the light in the darkness.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: You know?
John McLarty: I just said something hateful to this person, and they responded in love.
Kimberly Faith: Right. I know when I have seen that in action, which is, I’m going to just tell you, it’s pretty rare. It’s really rare. You know? And when I say it’s really rare, it’s rare for me. I want it to be more common, though. And I don’t mean common in the way that it’s mundane, but more frequent.
John McLarty: Yeah.
Kimberly Faith: And I really, you know, this is a great challenge. To me, this is a great challenge. And I think about that girl in that history class that he talked about. And I think about all the people who would probably say the exact same thing. I’ve never seen unconditional love. We are to be the light of the world. There’s no greater light that we can shine than the love of Christ. But if we do not let him have every corner of our life, our thought life, our speech life, our work life, our entertainment life, all these different, like you said compartments, we will never be able to really have the full experience of unconditional love. Because one of the things that the Lord keeps telling me and showing me is that if I want to experience what unconditional love feels like for me, that experience only happens when I’m giving it to others. Because love by, God’s love, selflessness, by the very nature of the thing itself must manifest itself. We don’t experience this unconditional love of God in isolation. Does that make sense?
John McLarty: Oh, yes.
Kimberly Faith: It has to be given away for us to really experience it.
John McLarty: Sure.
Kimberly Faith: Because otherwise, all we’re experiencing is some filtered kind of, you know, very filtered or or even stagnated.
John McLarty: Well, just think about some isolated hermit just sitting in a cabin somewhere thinking, I love everybody.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: I love everybody. I’m feeling love for everybody.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: But they never go out and do anything for anybody.
Kimberly Faith: Love is not a feeling.
John McLarty: Yeah.
Kimberly Faith: It’s a doing. You know, I think about you know, Jesus died for Judas. He died for Judas. He knew when Judas was selected as one of his 12, he already knew he was going to betray him. But when the Bible says love hopes all things, believes all things, he really demonstrated that because he already knew the end, but he kept putting into him. And, you know, I can’t even wrap my mind around that. But when we die to ourself, we live like Jesus. And it’s not through this willpower or good intentions or it is when the love of the Lord transforms us, and we can’t experience the full flavor of the love of the Lord unless we’re surrendering to him because love, I think you read, love is a fulfilling of the law. So although we’re born again, we still have to be constantly being transformed by the renewing of our mind, right? That’s Romans 12:1. And what that means is we still have this flesh that wants what it wants. And the more we discipline our flesh to quit polluting our heart, right, the more we have that free flow of the presence of God, which is love.
John McLarty: There’s a verse that talks about putting off the old man, which is the flesh, and putting on the new. And that’s a decision.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: I’ve heard this kind of explained, we get up in the morning when we put on a certain shirt. So it’s a decision we’re making.
Kimberly Faith: That’s a good analogy.
John McLarty: You go through life and you’ve got the old man, the flesh always.
Kimberly Faith: Right.
John McLarty: But you’ve got the new man.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: And in this certain situation, somebody says something ugly to you. Which person do you put on to react to that?
Kimberly Faith: I love that. Yeah. That’s a great way
John McLarty: That’s kind of a decision.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. You’ve got Jekyll and Hyde. Sorry. That’s way off script, but it’s true.
John McLarty: Living right in our own, within our own body.
Kimberly Faith: It’s kind of funny because, you know, I think about just how ridiculous we are sometimes about the shirt we decide to put on. Where does it even get us to put on the, you know, I don’t remember which one was good, Jekyll or Hyde, but anyway which one was, do you remember which one?
John McLarty: I don’t remember.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. I don’t either. But anyway, we put on the
John McLarty: Very different.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. We put on the person who’s going to act in the flesh. And what is the point of our life, at that point when we’re retaliating, what is the point of our life? When we are given the opportunity to live for God’s glory if we put on Christ in our response and make an eternal ripple through history. But we put on this hateful person that just responds to selfishness.
John McLarty: The selfish person.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And what, the point of our life becomes so unsatisfactory that we become, we fall into this cycle of just self loathing, you know, because we aren’t living up to our potential, and we know it. So kind of just wrapping this up, when does love become unconditional? Only when it’s from God.
John McLarty: When it’s from God.
Kimberly Faith: Only when it’s from God. And, you know, I’m so challenged by this because, man, I am full of areas in my life where I have transactional love that keeps score. Like, you know, I just gave you this, and you turned around. I asked you for a favor, and you ghosted me, you know? So I’m keeping score. But I’m asking the Lord, remind me how to react to that. And one of the reminders he’s giving is, why did you do it in the first place? Was your love, your reason for doing that because you were giving with an expectation of receiving, or were you giving with an expectancy of being in my presence?
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: Isn’t that a great way to think about it?
John McLarty: It is.
Kimberly Faith: Everything that we do. I mean, even doing this podcast, you know, I can get all in the flesh and think, I’ve you know, I have this idea and I want, this needs to be, and let’s do this and let the, I mean, just get in all wound up. And that’s not acting in God’s love with his perspective. That’s acting in Kim’s own mind.
John McLarty: It’s a challenge to ourselves, but, you know, there’s some metrics here out of First Corinthians 13. And, you know, just an exercise for you and I and our listeners is to just go back to that list and kind of gauge yourself.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: And it is. It’s really in the meddling territory. And I just think one that really jumps out at me, Kim, because I struggle with this. I struggle with all of them, obviously.
Kimberly Faith: Me too.
John McLarty: But love does not seek its own. And just in our flesh, that’s kind of what we do all the time.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: So, you know, one of my best examples to myself is just, there’s some church members, you know, a family member that has health problems, and that I should think of, pray for more often, and go visit more often. And that’s just a continual challenge to me because, you know, we all have our own to-do list
Kimberly Faith: Yeah.
John McLarty: You know? But that’s, that letting Christ out and going to make a phone, I mean, sometimes make a phone call, make a visit, text somebody. But it’s really challenging. But it is, and if we do something that’s loving, to recognize that’s not us. That’s not me.
Kimberly Faith: Not being puffed up.
John McLarty: That’s God within me. Yeah. Because we can do something. And, oh my goodness, I’m puffed up about it. It’s like the flesh is so deceptive.
Kimberly Faith: I like the way you characterized First Corinthians 13 as a metric. I think that’s a really good way to look at it because, I mean, none of us, our flesh is never going to be any better until it’s regenerated, until we have a new body, right? And that will be after, you know, after this soul and spirit leaves this earth, basically. At some point, we’re going to get the transformed body Christ had, right? But we just have to come to terms with, we cannot operate in the flesh and expect anything but selfishness.
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: We have to operate in the spirit, and that’s the only time we become capable of not seeking our own, of not being puffed up, of suffering long, of being kind in the face of evil
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: Of not being envious of somebody else’s blessings, of not rejoicing when something bad happens to somebody we don’t like. I mean
John McLarty: Right.
Kimberly Faith: Look. It’s the knee jerk reaction, you know? But what hope Jesus gave us. His command to love others the way he loves us, to give us a reality check. If I’m telling you to do this, it’s because you’re capable of doing it.
John McLarty: That’s encouraging. We can do it.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: And it’s kind of a message to those metrics. You look at them, and they’re meddling, but don’t give up.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right.
John McLarty: You can through letting the spirit of God control rather than the flesh.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right.
John McLarty: It’s a continual fight, but you can never just give up.
Kimberly Faith: Well, it’s meddling. And I think that word’s kind of fun. But it’s meddling like a really good coach meddles to make their athlete take off five seconds in the race, you know?
John McLarty: That’s very interesting because then it does actually turn around. And in the spiritual realm, it benefits us.
Kimberly Faith: Yes.
John McLarty: Yes. When we let the spirit have a victory, it gives us joy.
Kimberly Faith: That’s right. You know, the thing I always think about and the thing that motivates me to push myself and let God’s word meddle in my heart in this area is that I have experienced my own rich and personal love relationship with God, and it is so precious. It’s when we, and we don’t, I appreciate what you said earlier that it doesn’t, that doesn’t happen in isolation. That happens in the richest sense when we’re giving what God has given us to others.
John McLarty: Correct.
Kimberly Faith: That is when the relationship with God becomes enriched. Because it’s like the spring of water is flowing through us and going out of us, and we’re getting to see like Psalms One talks about, blessed is the man, you know, and he talks about being like a tree planted by the river’s water who brings forth its fruit in its season. And we get to be part of bearing fruit, and there’s nothing more beautiful than bearing fruit and then getting to share it with other people.
John McLarty: And that sense of being on God’s team and what a privilege that is.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. He wants to take ten seconds off my race, off my speed. I want him to do that. But, it’s just a daily challenge because we don’t, you know, our flesh is never any better, and it wants what it wants. But the spirit and the soul are empowered by Jesus Christ who won. Our flesh can be our worst enemy.
John McLarty: We have the mind of Christ.
Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah. So I really appreciate
John McLarty: If we let it out. Let it loose.
Kimberly Faith: I really appreciate the Lord giving us the opportunity to love like he loves.
John McLarty: Amen.
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