Episode 31: Marissa Spencer, LMT MMT: Holding Space To Make Peace With Pain

Jacob Paul: Welcome to the Truth in Love podcast with your host, Kimberly Faith. The Truth in Love podcast seeks to present God’s timeless truth through the lens of his remarkable love.

Kimberly Faith: Welcome back to the Truth in Love podcast. I’m here today with a very, very wonderful person, one of my favorite people to come see, Marissa Spencer. 

Marissa Spencer: Thank you. 

Kimberly Faith: And I’m very selfishly taking your time because I value you so much as a necessary part of my life, my massage therapist. And as I’ve gotten to know you, Marissa, you and you’re here, we’re actually sitting here today in your studio, the Olive Branch Clinical Massage Therapy Studio, is that what you call it?

Marissa Spencer: Or an office.

Kimberly Faith: Or an office.

Marissa Spencer: That’s fine too.

Kimberly Faith: Okay. And as we’ve gotten to know each other, I’ve been so impressed with just your approach to pain. Matter of fact, your studio or your office’s theme is making peace with your pain.

Marissa Spencer: Yes, ma’am.

Kimberly Faith: And so, as I’ve been underneath the administrations of your hands, hour after hour, fixing all my problems, It just occurred to me during our conversations that, and I’m sure it was the Lord, that you should be a guest of my podcast because I think that you have so much experience and wisdom in dealing with what you do as a massage therapist, a licensed medical massage therapist. Am I saying that right?

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Okay. That crosses over into the health of our soul and our spirit that I wanted to have you on as a guest and talk about this. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Thank you.

Kimberly Faith: Absolutely. So first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself, like where you’re from, because we know you’re not from the Midwest by just your cute little accent.

Marissa Spencer: No. I’m actually born and raised in Massachusetts. I lived on the South Coast about in the armpit of the state. If you picture the state, it’s got an arm like that. So, yeah, I lived there and I moved to Pennsylvania and lived there for about nine years before moving to Missouri.

Kimberly Faith: Is that where you started, did your massage therapy training?

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: Okay.

Marissa Spencer:  I went to school in Pennsylvania to become a massage therapist.

Kimberly Faith: And explain just because you explained this to me earlier, what the difference is between a massage therapist who just gives, like Swedish massage versus what you do.

Marissa Spencer:  So, massage school is just to teach you a basic Swedish massage. So, these are primarily for relaxation purposes. It’s not that you can’t offer pain relief through that because you can emotionally as well. Also massage just increases circulation and that can help your body heal. As opposed to medical massage, that’s dealing with a particular problem and using different muscle testing and range of motion testing, different approaches to figure out exactly what the dysfunction is in the body and then treating it and then retesting.

Kimberly Faith: Gotcha. And that’s mostly what you do. I think I asked you one time, I said, Marissa, as I was underneath the painful pressure that you were putting on my body to help me with different areas of where I was having pain. I said, Does anybody ever come to you for a fufu massage?

Marissa Spencer: Not really.

Kimberly Faith: Most people are coming to you because they have some pain in a particular part of their body and you’re going to help provide relief. 

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: And that’s not a fun process. That is a painful process.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. It’s definitely uncomfortable.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah. No, I don’t mean it made me cry. It’s not that kind of pain.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah, not that kind of pain, but like to feel discomfort while you’re receiving that type of bodywork is very common. 

Kimberly Faith: Yes. 

Marissa Spencer: And probably the only way to have your pain resolved.

Kimberly Faith: That’s and that, of course, just echoes so many spiritual principles that we’ll get into later. But I’m very curious. How did you come up with this theme, making peace with your pain?

Marissa Spencer: Well, it actually kind of came to me and I would like to thank our heavenly Father for that, for planting that mission in my mind about it. It really came with the name for my business, Olive Branch.

Kimberly Faith: I love that. I love that name.

Marissa Spencer: You’re the proverbial extending the Olive Branch. So that’s like meeting someone where they’re at and trying to find a common ground and to make peace with them.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah.

Marissa Spencer: So that was the inspiration. And just in the same way we see the spiritual aspect, we see that physical aspect as well of making peace with your pain.

Kimberly Faith:  Yeah. It’s all interconnected. I have so many people that I’m teaching weekly or facilitating their learning on how to make peace with their emotional spiritual pain through finding a deeper relationship with God. And specifically, being born again through Jesus Christ who is the Prince of Peace. Right?

Marissa Spencer: Yes.

Kimberly Faith: And coming to, because pain is going to be with us until we’re gone, when this body is dead.

Marissa Spencer: Yes.

Kimberly Faith:  And so having that approach and that’s one reason I really wanted to interview you on this podcast because I feel like what you’ve done just for me, not just having your hands on me and helping relieve my physical pain through kind of causing through a very painful process. Again, I don’t mean to make it sound like it was horrible. It’s uncomfortable, I think is the right word, a process that brings my body to a place where it is working better.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And that’s what kind of the spiritual process is too.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. It definitely echoes throughout the physical, the spiritual, the emotional aspects of life.

Kimberly Faith:  It’s multifaceted. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. It’s definitely multifaceted.

Kimberly Faith: Well, tell us a little bit about the techniques that you use to, first of all, figure out the etiology of a person’s pain and then how you go about it. I know there’s probably a thousand techniques, but just generally speaking, how do you do that?

Marissa Spencer: So it really starts with collecting information from them. I ask them what their occupation is so that I can understand the way that they’re holding themselves throughout the day. Are they a person that sits at a desk all day? And to me, that translates to which muscles are shortened throughout their day. So those are the muscles that are going to be tightened.

Kimberly Faith: You explained this earlier to me about the muscles.That there’s two processes that you’re looking at when you work with somebody’s muscles.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. So if some of your muscles are shortened, the opposite muscle will be lengthened.

Kimberly Faith: So you work on both ends? 

Marissa Spencer: Yes.

Kimberly Faith:  If you’re having like I’m having knee pain. You’re working with that example. I think that’s a good I don’t mind using my example. I Know there’s, I don’t care about my patient privilege.

Marissa Spencer:  Yeah. So, I’m working on all the muscles that are involved in what could be causing that pain. So, all of the synergist muscles that produce that movement that is producing the pain that you’re experiencing, but also the antagonist muscles that are like opposing that movement. 

Kimberly Faith: Interesting.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: So, you asked them about where they work, what they do for living, whether they’re sedentary, they’re kind of biomechanics of their job. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Do they exercise?

Kimberly Faith:  Right. 

Marissa Spencer: You know, when did their pain begin?

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

Marissa Spencer: You know, did they do something that caused that pain to happen?

And in your case, you were pressing the gas pedal for a long time.

Kimberly Faith: Fifteen hours. Right? Not much break usage there. Pulling a trailer. Right.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And so you do that then do you can you also tell by, like, just observing a person and then putting your hands on them if that pain that they’re reporting is cohesive with what you’re seeing and feeling?

Marissa Spencer: So, there’s a postural analysis that I just take with my eyes. I look at them, I see how they’re standing. I see, is their foot turned out? Is their shoulder elevated? Does their trunk look rotated? Just, I’m looking at how they’re standing.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa Spencer: And seeing where the compensatory patterns are going on.

Kimberly Faith: That makes a lot of sense.  And then this is just a random question, but I noticed we were talking earlier before my appointment that you asked me a question and I moved something and you said, before I even said whether it hurt or not, you said, I can tell that hurt.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  How could you tell that? 

Marissa Spencer: Because when you went to lean on your knee, you kind of jolted a little. It was like your body language.  I could see that once you hit that level of pain, you kind of like the strength was gone and that your body kind of wanted to collapse with that kneeling. So I could tell that it hurt when you did it.

Kimberly Faith: So, you’ve had how many years of experience of doing what you’ve done?

Marissa Spencer: About ten now.

Kimberly Faith: Okay.

Marissa Spencer: Yep.

Kimberly Faith: And then you were telling a story. You actually ended up in Missouri.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: How did that happen?

Marissa Spencer:  Well, we wanted to live in the Bible Belt, honestly.

Kimberly Faith: Nothing wrong with that. I mean, I have a lot of clients in my law practice who say the same thing. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. They wanted to be where they could feel more free to talk about their faith in God as a part of their daily life.

Marissa Spencer: Well, where I was in Pennsylvania, it was a lot of refining that God did in me. And from the time that I started my business there to the time that I left, I felt like a completely different person.

Kimberly Faith:  Interesting. 

Marissa Spencer: And so, the business that I created there was by who I was before truly walking with Him.

Kimberly Faith:  Interesting.

Marissa Spencer: And so, that changed me and I wanted to be able to be my most authentic self and I didn’t feel that I could be that there because people already knew who I was before. So it kind of felt like it was stunting my growth.

Kimberly Faith: It’s really interesting because I’ve heard that kind of both ways. Like, for example, I’ve lived here for quite a long time, and so there are a lot of people who knew me before I really started walking in a genuine relationship with God. I was more of a, I called myself a plastic Christian back then. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  And then people who’ve known me since then, and while there are still a lot of people who are very cynical, you know, and that’s okay. I don’t judge anybody, but I think that contrast in the plastic Christianity versus the authentic relationship with God, that person that’s totally different has been a testimony in and of itself. But I think what you are, one of the things you’re, that you and I’ve had conversations about, that you’ve experienced here is a freedom to take your faith to your practice.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. Because I couldn’t really reshape my practice at that time. I had employees that worked for me. 

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa Spencer: And so, they were representing the brand that I created there, the corporate entity.

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

Marissa Spencer: The legal fiction, that was my business. And so, in moving here, I wanted to be able to glorify God in what I do.

Kimberly Faith: I love that. I absolutely love that. And I completely understand that. I think that the reshaping my law practice has gone through over in the iterations of the last ten years has been I can see the milestones where I’ve been able to bring Christ into my law practice and bring the fruit of his spirit into my law practice as he has grown it and pruned the vine, so to speak. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And now it’s very free.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  You know? And I love that about you because I love that you’re one of the authentic Christians  whose business represents Christ.

Marissa Spencer: Yes.

Kimberly Faith: What Christ looked like, you know, meaning his love, his joy, his peace, his goodness, his wisdom, his kindness, his gentleness, his truth. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  Right? I mean, that’s what we call this podcast, the Truth in Love.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. He met people where they’re at and still does.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And you get to do that with your hands. 

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: And with your skills and presence, you know and I know this from just the first time I met you know, that there was an almost instant connection because there was that common denomination in the Holy Spirit, right, with this common denominator. And we both knew from the very beginning that we were believers.

And, then in my law practice and then in your massage therapy, we have this great fellowship while we’re doing what we do for a living. 

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: And that’s one of the reasons that we created this podcast was to have people tell their stories about how Jesus is integral in their business and in every aspect of their life. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: Do you see that in your own practice?

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Absolutely. Just in how I approach the massage sessions as well.  I don’t expect somebody to come in and, I don’t know, like, be an easy client for me or just have typical problems for me. Actually, I really enjoy when somebody throws me a curveball. And I enjoy the challenge and I feel like our heavenly Father does too.

Kimberly Faith: I do. I think so too. I think He likes to impress us with himself and what he can do. I was telling you earlier that I had this case, and I can’t, of course, talk about the actual specifics where oh, I had been praying for this client of mine, and I mean, I needed a miracle, for the family. And I mean, God just dropped the bomb. He just totally dropped the bomb. And when the client came back and was like, you’re the best lawyer. I can’t believe that you did this. And I kept saying, no. No. No. You have to understand this wasn’t me. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: I’ve been praying for you. I’ve been praying for this case. And God did this. It was a miracle. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: You know? Because it just doesn’t happen.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: And then we point people to Jesus because they see him for who he is as opposed to who we’ve made him.

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: Which is a huge difference, you know?

Marissa Spencer: That definitely translates into massage therapy because you’ll often hear massage therapists themselves or other people call us healers. I don’t believe that I’m a healer. I believe that I can be the catalyst for healing. That’s something that I did to allow the body to heal itself.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

Marissa Spencer: That maybe I played a part in this process. 

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa Spencer:  But that I did not cause the healing to happen for them.

Kimberly Faith: I think that’s a very astute observation because it’s like the practice of law. I mean, I can help you with your physical legal problem, and it’s not going to be perfect because we have an imperfect system. We do the best we can. But if I can bring you further into the peace of God and relieve your anxiety on a spiritual level as opposed to just a legal level, then you’re like you’re the same thing. You can relieve a person’s physical pain to a certain degree.

But if you have the fruit of the spirit in your practice and, let’s say it’s a person who doesn’t know Jesus, and they sense that because it’s very palpable. I mean, there’s no mistaking when a person has peace, you know, or joy. You know, it’s not like you can fake that. It’s the fruit of God’s spirit, not ours. Then that piques their curiosity, and they’re like, hey, Marissa, why are you so peaceful? I mean, I’ve just been dumping all my problems on you and you’re just like have this calm about you. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: And then you can point them to Jesus.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. I like that through our practices that we can bear witness of Him.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. Because otherwise we’re just bearing witness of ourselves and we can’t do anything for anybody. 

Marissa Spencer: Absolutely. 

Kimberly Faith: You know? It’s like, it’s such a gosh, it’s such a gift.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: You know? And that gift, I mean, I know from my own practice that when I’m helping someone who’s a fellow believer who’s on fire for the Lord, that’s a gift. That’s an incredible gift. 

Marisa Spencer: Yes.

Kimberly Faith: But then when I’m helping someone who has no idea who God is, that’s a very different gift. And opportunity. And then and even, you know, another aspect, I know you’ve had this happen too, with even dealing with colleagues, people who maybe you’re helping or training or even a person in my profession who’s on the other side of that fence. Right? 

If, you know, I like, I had a situation the day where I had filed something and I didn’t, there was a misunderstanding. The other attorney hadn’t agreed to it, but I thought he had. And so he shot me an email and I was like, oh my gosh, I’m sorry. We withdrew it. And I called him, and it was an opportunity. And, you know, I don’t like that. I don’t like admitting I made a mistake. I don’t like having to deal with controversy. But the first thing was the Lord just was there and he said, I said, I am so sorry. You know, that was a complete misunderstanding. That was you know, I should have double checked. He was like, completely open to that. And I was like, you know what? It’s okay. Well it lays the groundwork because I don’t know what his relationship with God is. Doesn’t matter. He knows that I came in peace, the olive branch.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. It was honesty and a humble spirit that you met him with.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.  And I know that you’ve had, I mean, you’ve shared some of this with me that you’ve had, like, because you train you do training, right?

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. I have an apprenticeship program that I’ll run.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And so in that apprenticeship, obviously, you’re going to  deal with people who have maybe vastly different opinions from what you have. 

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: And so along those lines, have you found that the fruit of God’s spirit in you has given you the opportunity to not necessarily resolve the difference of opinion, but allowed you to walk away with your testimony, that you’re representing Christ intact, but have at least a discussion about the differences.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. I just had to meet them where they were at and then, like, have patience and understanding with what they had to say and what their perspective was. And even though maybe I didn’t agree, I just tried to find a common ground for us.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And I think as Christians, you said that so well. Because as Christians, that’s exactly what we’re called to do is, you know, the attitudes that Jesus taught us in the beatitudes. If we’re poor in spirit, meaning we know that every breath that we take comes from God, then when we are encountering someone who has maybe a completely different worldview than we do, or even if it’s just your apprenticeship program and they have a different opinion than what your experience is trying to teach them. You can give them grace because you know that God is the one who’s going to give you the answers, not you.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Well, and I could share my experience with them, but ultimately, they’ll have to experience that for themselves, and then they can draw their conclusions.

Kimberly Faith: Right. Because some people don’t want to learn from other people’s experiences, and I’m guilty of that myself. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  Oh, I can do it better.

Marissa Spencer: Some things you got to see firsthand.

Kimberly Faith: That’s right. That’s right. And to understand that and, you know, we’re called to be disciples and give glory to God in all things. And we’re to make disciples. We’re supposed to be disciple makers. Right? And the best way is, you have children. I have children. The best way to teach my children to cook is to make them get in the kitchen with me.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And you know what? I can tell you that each of my kids learned to cook, learned some of their cooking skills in the kitchen with me, but each of them has a different flavor they pulled and they are now producing in their own kitchen. And that’s the goal, not for people to be like us, but to be like Jesus. And if even a person who’s an unbeliever, like a person you’re teaching in your apprenticeship program, if they see Jesus in you, they’re not going to forget that. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: Because He’s unforgettable.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. It kind of went in like how I taught them massage techniques as well. I did not initially teach them how to massage like me.

Kimberly Faith:  Right.

Marissa Spencer: I just taught them all the different techniques that they could do. And I think one of the most monumental classes or lessons that I taught was how to sequence your massage.

Kimberly Faith:  Explain that. 

Marissa Spencer: So, like, the way I did that was I explained to them the techniques that I would consider, like opening strokes. And so, like, more broad to more specific techniques. And so I would list them. Here’s all the broad techniques and here’s all the specific techniques. Now on your paper, select the techniques that you want to use. So then they formulated their sequences based on that, like what they thought were really good techniques as I had gone through and taught them all to them. What that did was it produced vastly different massage therapists and in fact, none of them massaged like me.

Kimberly Faith: That is so interesting. The first thing I thought of when you said that is the way God gives us a foundation in his word for the things we’re supposed to do and the attitudes we’re supposed to have. With the knowledge in his word we’re supposed to have the truth.

And then he creates, you know, eight or 9,000,000,000 people who are all unique. Right?  Who get to manifest that in their own multifaceted way. 

Marissa spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  You know?

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  And it’s so in my experience, you know, so they were these apprentices, they were around you learning the fundamentals, and then they went off and did their own massage technique

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Based on the fundamentals.

Marissa Spencer:  Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: That’s a great lesson in discipleship, really. I mean, truly. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: It’s a great but I want to kind of switch gears if it’s okay with you.

Marissa Spencer: Sure.

Kimberly Faith:  You know, something that you have said to me, and I think on a couple different occasions that making peace with pain is a multifaceted process.

Marissa Spencer: Yes.

Kimberly Faith: And so explain that a little bit.

Marissa Spencer: Well, it just depends on, I think, if your pain is acute or localized, if it’s specific, if it just happened, you know, is it a temporary thing or is this something that’s chronic pain, something that you’ve been dealing with a long time or like an old injury or the way a trauma has manifested in your body. Those are two very different pains.

Kimberly Faith:  Right.

Kimberly Faith: And you approach them differently. 

Marissa Spencer: Yes. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. When you said that, it made me think about that, you know, we have emotional pain, we have, you know, anxiety based pain, we have all kinds of different pains as our soul, right? We talk about our body, soul, and spirit in our concept study and our soul. And some of that pain is self-inflicted. Right? 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: We make choices to go against God’s word. Some of that pain is inflicted by others. Some of that pain is because we live in a worldly culture that is either bent towards the wrong. Right? And some pain is caused by things that are just not even moral. It’s like a disease. Right? It’s not moral pain. It’s physical because we live in a fallen world. Cancer is not caused because somebody did something wrong to you or you did something wrong. Cancer comes from your body. It’s physical. But how we approach each of those sets of pain is different. A different opportunity is the way I like to say it. It’s a different opportunity to give glory to God in a different way.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: You know? And so, that’s when you said that, was like, oh, this is a good spiritual lesson.

Marissa Spencer: Oh, it is. So, take like a cancer patient. This is definitely a palliative care massage.

Kimberly Faith:  Right. 

Marissa Spencer: I’m not going to get rid of her cancer

Kimberly Faith:  Right.

Marissa Spencer: By giving her a massage,  but I can help comfort her with the massage.

Kimberly Faith: Like, same would be true if somebody lost their husband or wife, right? 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: You’re giving more palliative is that how you say it? 

Marrisa Spencer:  Palliative care. 

Kimberly Faith: Palliative, I don’t know how to say the word.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely more of a relaxation approach. 

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa spencer:  You know, trying to reduce their stress or help them to calm down.

Kimberly Faith: Right. But if I decided to play, you know, tackle football with somebody who’s a professional football player, that would be just stupid. 

Marissa Spencer: Right. 

Kimberly Faith: And then you would have different ways to address my stupid pain.

Marissa Spencer: Well, yeah. Like if you, I don’t know.

Kimberly Faith: That’s a dumb example. That’s all I would probably do. 

Marissa spencer: Well, right.

Kimberly Faith: You know?

Marissa Spencer: But like, yeah, if you, I don’t know, like lifted something the wrong way.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah.

Marissa Spencer: Or something like that is a, like pulling your back out is a much different pain than the pain that you feel from cancer.

Kimberly Faith: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that, you know, when we talk about pain in the body, you know, the techniques that you apply are, I mean, really the way you’ve talked about it, it has not just a physical effect, but it also produces, hopefully relief like even to things that are caused by anxiety. Like, you know, I sometimes get, my job is all tight because of anxiety. 

Marissa spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: You know? And so you’re not just dealing with physical trauma, but it’s emotional trauma and even anxiety, that sort of thing. You’re actually able to work with your hands to alleviate the pain from all different kinds of ideologies. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Right? And I think that’s at least this is one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show because I thought, good grief, that’s just this thing we do with people, when we deal with spiritual anxiety, you know, emotional anxiety. We’re taking them where they are and saying, okay. Like, I had a client whose spouse died and, you know, they were married for almost fifty years, and this person is in pain. And so to go at them as if I’m trying to comfort somebody who is maybe been drinking and driving and is in my office for a much different reason 

Marissa spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Is the wrong approach. You know?

Marissa Spencer: Right.

Kimberly Faith: And the difference is, you know, I mean, if, let’s say, both clients need Jesus as their Lord and Savior, I’m not going to come at them with some abrasive approach. Well, you know, you know Jesus is your savior because if you don’t, buddy, you’re going to hell. That’s not the approach.

Marissa Spencer: Right.

Kimberly Faith: The approach is to let them come to you where they are. And that’s exactly what happened in both those situations.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: You know? The one person who is suffering from the loss of a spouse was, tell me where this person is now. Tell me where my loved one is. And I happened to know this person’s loved one and that this person had been born again. And so I was able to talk about the scriptures that I read out of I think it’s Luke about the rich man and Lazarus. And, hey, you know, this is what the Bible says, and this is what can give you hope. And then that person asked me, well, how can I know that when I die, I’m going to be with my spouse? And I explained the gospel, you know, and let it go.Then give it to God. 

Marissa spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  Right? I don’t have to have an altar call right then. 

Marissa Spencer: Right. It’s like planting a seed.

Kimberly Faith: It’s right. It’s planting a seed. And then on the other hand, there’s the person with the DWI who’s lost the wife, lost the, you know, lost everything, about to lose his career, and they’re anxious and desperate. And, you know, that would be in that particular situation, it was more of, hey, you know, the problem isn’t really that you drink. Why do you, you know, think about this? Why are you drinking? Why do you drink yourself into oblivion? The problem is because you have a need in your soul. You’re trying to drown with alcohol. You know?

And so that’s just an example from my practice, but I’m sure you, you know, you do the same thing with people that come into your office. And depending on where they are, you’re able to assess and lead them in a direction to find reconciliation with God.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Because that’s the goal. Right? 

Marissa spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  It’s not just to make a buck.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Those are some of the best conversations, I feel like.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel the freedom in your practice to while you’re bringing, you’re addressing their physical pain, do you feel the freedom in your practice to also, when the door opens, to address their spiritual pain?

Marissa Spencer: When the door opens is the key question. 

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa Spencer:  But yes, yeah, I do. There are some deep conversations that happen on the table, for sure.

Kimberly Faith: You feel like people, like, when they come to you, they’re in a slightly more vulnerable position that allows that to be a more organic conversation.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah, I would say so. Sorry, my mind’s going in a lot of different directions, Kim.

Kimberly Faith: That’s okay. That’s okay.

Marissa Spencer: Like, I have a thought too, like when you’re talking about trauma in the body. So in massage, we’re taught how to handle emotional releases.

Kimberly Faith: Oh, interesting.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. So like, I can just tell you from an experience with that. You know how I did that psoas release on you the other day and I said, how did that feel when we were doing that? 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. 

Marissa Spencer: Well, so that’s one of those muscles that can store emotion in people. And the first time I ever had a psoas release done on me, she did the left hip and that was fine. I was like, oh, that felt interesting. She did the right hip and it was not a sharp pain, but I started crying. 

Kimberly Faith: Interesting. 

Marissa spencer: And I said to her, I don’t know why I’m crying. I don’t. I’m not even sad about anything. 

Kimberly Faith: Gosh. That’s crazy. 

Marissa spencer: It’s because, it’s just like we just store our emotions in our muscles.

Kimberly Faith: Isn’t the human body just a marvelous creation that is so we don’t even understand it all.

Marissa Spencer: Or even like, I stepped on a vibration plate. Have you ever used one of those? Okay. So, I stepped on a vibration plate a couple months ago and I had a C section about a year ago. And as this vibration plate like jiggled everywhere in me, I felt it massaging inside where I had the C section scar.

Kimberly Faith: Interesting.

Marissa Spencer: And so,  it was so weird to feel this kind of sensation inside of me there and it was like touching a place that nobody else could at this point.

Kimberly Faith: Isn’t that what God does?

Marissa spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: He touches the places that nobody else can touch.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah, and I felt emotional. I was like, wow. I didn’t realize like there’s still so much trauma there from that experience. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah, incision. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that because again, I know we think a lot alike.

My mind is going 40 different directions right now with what you just said.

Marissa spencer:  Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  But I think that the wonder of the human body is supposed to teach us about the wonder of the creator. You know. Because the creature is just a reflection of the creator, and the creator is greater than the creature. Right?  And so I know we, earlier we were talking about, you know, can we even imagine what heaven’s going to be like in the presence of God unfettered by darkness and sin and the sorrow of the world, the tears. And what’s it going to  be like? I think God allows us to have these little moments like what you experienced when in the psoas release or even the pain and the a scarring trauma that  was randomly being, you know, massaged.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  I think God allows us to have those glimpses to give us a bigger picture of who, how great he is and how wonderful, how to comforter he is. You know, think of blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the God of all comfort. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: You know? And I think about, you know, the command of Jesus to don’t be anxious. 

Marissa spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: Right? We’re not supposed to be anxious. And he just gives us all these little these indicators. Hey, if you’ll just pay attention to even your own body, you can experience this.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. And there’s something to say about nature versus nurture too. So, like, nurture is like your upbringing and the experience that you have on earth. Okay? But your nature is what’s woven into the fabric of your being.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

Marissa Spencer: And so you’ll even notice that even with young children, kind of like what their shtick is going to be. You know what I mean?

Kimberly Faith: Their shtick.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah, their shtick. Like in my eldest son, I could tell pride was going to be a thing for him and something that he would need to overcome one day. You know, he would always like want to win, you know, like with other kids or he’d always like turn and look at me and go, did you see that mom? Did you see that mom? Like, he always wanted that

Kimberly Faith: Affirmation.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah, affirmation. 

Kimberly Faith: Praise. 

Marissa spencer: Praise or whatever, you know? And I just could tell in his nature that that’s something that’s woven into his being. And just in my own experiences, I’ve come to realize that the only person that can change our nature is our father in heaven.

Kimberly Faith: Right. Who has a perfect nature. 

Marissa Spencer: Right. 

Kimberly Faith: Righteous, just and loving. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And you know, you were talking about your son, and we all of course, as mothers, we kind of can pick up on those things with our kids, right, what their problems are going to be. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  And I always think though about that, like, for example, I was kind of like your son, probably still am, you know? I wanted to be the, I mean, when we were hippies, I named myself Little Star. I mean, come on.

Marissa spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  You know, I wanted to be the star of a show. I would put on the plays, run all the lines, play all the parts. You know what I’m saying? 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And dance in front of the hippie fire, right, in the teepee. But, you know, the thing is, that quality that could be used for evil, God takes that, and if we let him, he uses it for good. Because any strength can become our greatest weakness. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: But any weakness can also become our greatest strength.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Somebody like that, like my son or like you can be a great leader.

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa Spencer: You know? That would be like the positive outcome of that quality.

Kimberly Faith: Exactly.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And that’s where the application of the attitudes that Christ taught us are so important because when Jesus says, blessed are the meek, right? He’s talking about meekness is strength under control, not under our control, but under his control.  Right? I mean, I used the example of that, on our podcast, of a stallion that I rode. And that horse, he would be able to take me and just pulverize me. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  But because he had been trained to operate with a bit in his mouth and be controlled by a rider. He could do greater things than stay in the pasture and be crazy, you know, And that would be your son and me, you know?

Marissa Spencer: Well, it’s true. You know, he’s the oldest son and he has five brothers.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah.

Marissa Spencer: And so, like, what a charge he’s been given in life.  Like, really the honor of the firstborn. And so, he can choose to look at that as a burden. 

Kimberly Faith: Right. 

Marissa Spencer: Or the honor that it is. 

Kimberly Faith: And a great opportunity. You know? 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: A great opportunity. Well, I think about when I was thinking about the idea of pain, okay? How your theme of being able to process pain and use it basically to your advantage, that’s kind of what I pull from what you’ve talked about is using pain to learn something, to grow, and not have the pain manage our life, but us managing the pain for God’s glory. Right? 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  It reminded me of the series we did on affliction and giving thanks for trouble as part of

Marissa Spencer: Oh, yeah.

Kimberly Faith: Of going, of making affliction an opportunity. I because it kind of is the same type of theme. Right? And  you know, in a world that we live in that is that is plagued by problems and pain and trouble and however you want to categorize that, I think that you and I and people who have businesses, especially, or other communities that we are constantly involved in, if we can make that our theme, that any kind of pain or trouble that we encounter is an opportunity to give thanks to God. Because it’s an opportunity to do something we would not have had been able to do had we not had the pain. You know what I’m saying?

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. I also feel like it’s through the challenges that we grow.

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

Marissa Spencer: And so like, if God is throwing challenges at you, it’s because he wants you to grow. So that he’s paying attention to you. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. 

Marissa Spencer: And it’s like, what are you going to do with this?

Kimberly Faith: Right.

Marissa Spencer: You know?

Kimberly Faith: Or if he’s allowing it.

Marissa Spencer: Allowing it to happen to refine you.

Kimberly Faith: Absolutely.

Marissa Spencer: Like iron sharpens iron, you can’t sharpen iron with a feather.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t want a fufu massage from you. 

Marissa Spencer: Right.

Kimberly Faith:  I want the real deal. Because I want to get better.

Marissa Spencer: Right. Or like, the only way to make oil is through crushing the olives.

Kimberly Faith: Or making a  diamond shine is through the chiseling and lasering and all that. It’s really interesting how when we talk about affliction, we talk about pain, what a gift it is.

Marissa Spencer: It’s an opportunity.

Kimberly Faith: It is an opportunity. And you know, I read a very interesting book, and I cannot remember the name of the author, but it was about a doctor who treated leprosy, and he worked in leper colonies. And he said he made an interesting observation. I didn’t know this. But he said, leprosy is a result of having injury or disease like a rat or a rat bite or something, and you can’t feel it because a leper has nerve damage that allows them to not be able to feel. So a leper, if their right leg or their right foot, if the nerves don’t work, they can twist their ankle and they’ll continue to flop along and walk on that ankle without realizing that it’s injured. And then it becomes diseased. And I didn’t know that about leprosy.

Marissa Spencer: No, I didn’t know that.

Kimberly Faith: But his point is that pain plays a very important part in our ability to exist in a more healthy environment or a more healthy state.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. You wouldn’t know that something needs your attention unless, you had the signal

Kimberly Faith: Yes.

Marissa Spencer: To tell you that.

Kimberly Faith: Yes. And that to me, you know, kind of magnifies when we talk about like, in the basic concepts for life, Bible concepts for life, one the things we teach is the anxiety mechanism that God gives us, meaning that sin causes us anxiety because it separates us from God, which is what we need. He’s like our water, right, and our oxygen. That’s a good thing because it tells us we have a need. And if we don’t have, if that need is not met, we will die an eternal death. And so, you know, pain is a way to present the gospel because it shows us our need. Right? 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  So, Marissa, as we wrap up today, I want to ask you the question I like to ask people when I interview them at the end of a podcast. And that is, what is something that you hold to be very important in your mission of bringing peace to people? What is like one thing you can leave with others that you find very useful and very  helpful in giving glory to God in your practice?

Marissa Spencer: Well, I believe that it’s about holding space for people where they’re at and not having an expectation for what they’re going to present with. But rather listening to their experiences and what that looks and feels like for them and stepping outside of yourself for a moment just to, I guess, like put yourself in their shoes and not debate them on whether that’s real or not.

Kimberly Faith:  I love that.

Marissa Spencer:  Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: I love that. Holding space for people. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: That’s brilliant and beautiful. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: It really is. And you, I know that you do that because you’ve done that with me. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: You know? And, and I’ll be honest with our listeners. You know, the first time you told me that, I was blown away. It actually really, somewhat changed the course of how I even handle my own conversations with clients or with somebody that I meet in Lowe’s, for example, you ask them maybe questions and then you hold space for them to answer. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  And to be who they are. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith: And then, you said this earlier, you meet them where they are.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. Meet them where they’re at and not like trying to change them or even trying to fix them.

Kimberly Faith:  Right. 

Marissa spencer: But just rather, I see you.

Kimberly Faith: I feel you.

Marissa Spencer:  I feel you. Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: I know your experience is common to humanity.

Marissa Spencer: It’s empathy, having empathy for others.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. I absolutely love that and holding space for others. You know, that requires a one on one relationship, having the time, making the time for people. You know, I’m very convicted by that. I’m very convicted by that because we rush around with our to-do list as if it’s the most important thing on earth.

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. And also that, like, people rush around with their to do list and sometimes they’re experiencing pain and they don’t talk about it. They’re not going to  mention it to the person they pass by on the road. 

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. 

Marissa Spencer: But they’ll go to their massage therapist and their massage therapist will ask them, tell me about your pain today. And that’s really interesting because I feel like that’s what God wants us to do, is to tell him about our pain so that he can hold space for us. 

Kimberly Faith: That is beautiful. That is so beautiful. And that is in fact what he does. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah. 

Kimberly Faith: You know? I even from the smallest thing, I mean, like, I wake up some mornings and people say, did you just wake up loving Jesus? No. I wake up some mornings and say, God help me to love you because I’m obviously not in the mood. And he does that. I love that, Marissa. That is just, it’s profound. It’s profound.

Marissa Spencer: It’s profound.

Kimberly Faith: Yeah. And, thank you for sharing that. I suspect there are a lot of listeners, who probably needed to hear this as much as I did and need to put this to work, this idea of holding space for people the way God holds space for us. 

Marissa Spencer: Yeah.

Kimberly Faith:  You know? And so thank you for sharing that. 

Marissa Spencer: You’re welcome.

Kimberly Faith: And thank you for joining us on this podcast, and I appreciate that. And if you’re listening to this and you do not know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, I hope that you will look at our website and the part of the website that talks about how to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, because he is holding space for you. He died to give you space, that space for grace that you could be reconciled to Jesus Christ or to God. I said it again, to God our Father and know Him for eternity and let Him fill that space with His love, His joy, His peace, his compassion, his wisdom, and his heart. You won’t regret it. Thank you, Marissa.

Marissa Spencer: Thank you.

Jacob Paul: You’ve been listening to the Truth in Love podcast with your host, Kimberly Faith. To discover more answers to the big questions in life, visit us at gofaithstrong.com.